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Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

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Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#71

Post by fzeroracer »

Apocryphon wrote: post #67
betterunix2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about Facebook, it is about some startup you have never heard of that actually is doing something positive for the world and suddenly finds its business smothered by poorly thought out regulations. Considering that we have powerful congressmen who do not even understand Facebook's business model (and whose staff failed to explain it to them) does not give me confidence in Congress' ability to craft construct…

That's a terrifying possibility. Are there any actual case studies and examples of tech startups being killed by regulation? Or is this a campfire story that is retold whenever the possibility of regulation is mentioned.

The inherent nature of regulations mean there is always going to be a 'winner' and a 'loser'. For example I have no doubts that regulations removing lead from gasoline resulted in lost profits and hurt businesses, but we can also believe that the societal gains were far greater than the losses.

Similarly regulations in favor of privacy for citizens is going to naturally result in some companies, somewhere, having to adapt or take a hit or possibly not survive the transition. That doesn't mean we shouldn't implement those regulations because ultimately the larger monopolistic companies pose a far greater problem than the smaller startups can solve.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#72

Post by uberman »

mimixco wrote: post #4

Quit expecting governments to save you. The easiest fix for this problem is to stop using these products! No matter how much bad news comes out about Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon using your data in bad ways -- people still keep using them. If enough people quit, this will stop or a competitor will rise up who doesn't do this stuff.

You can't stop using Equifax, Experian, or Trans Union. While it is likely you can stop using Target, there are plenty of other retailers who have been the subject of data breaches.

Here is just a partial list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_breaches

When these companies have data breaches and loose your credit data into the public they should pay a real price. At the moment their penalty is offering you "a years worth of credit monitoring".

There is virtually no accountability for protecting this data yet your credit profile is used extensively for everything from getting a load, to rending an apartment, security and background checks.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#73

Post by smsm42 »

fzeroracer wrote: post #48
srkmno wrote: post #26

Pitchfork mobs dictating policy, that is why you don't elect an ex state attorney general to the legislative branch: prosecution and grandstanding is all they know. Also the principle concept of "stealing your data" is more ludicrous than "stealing" in the copyright sense; that data is meta data and it's not yours, it was generated by machines you don't own and have no claim over.

Let's say someone really hates Facebook. What exactly is their recourse for them to say 'I don't want you to keep a shadow profile and I don't want you to sell or use that in any way shape for form'. In that case, they're directly monetizing data about me as a person.

Let's say person A really hates person B. Does A have a legal right to ban B from recognizing A on the street?

There are laws against stalking in the US, which define stalking as:

engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to:

(A) fear for his or her safety or the safety of others;

(B) suffer substantial emotional distress.

If you succeed in proving that Facebook tracking causes you substantial emotional distress, and that would be the case for a reasonable person too, you might have a case here.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#74

Post by chatmasta »

srkmno wrote: post #26

Pitchfork mobs dictating policy, that is why you don't elect an ex state attorney general to the legislative branch: prosecution and grandstanding is all they know. Also the principle concept of "stealing your data" is more ludicrous than "stealing" in the copyright sense; that data is meta data and it's not yours, it was generated by machines you don't own and have no claim over.

I really love the simplicity of this argument. If you generate the metadata, you own it, no questions asked.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#75

Post by dmix »

fzeroracer wrote: post #55
srkmno wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah let's restrict, ban and kill every new idea in it's crib, that'll surly make the world a better place, I'm happy you're enjoying your time in this entrepreneur community. Let's also make sure all future gains are made by the lawyers and other middle men so that world peace will finally be at hand.

Considering right now companies like Facebook are very actively making the world a worse place I would say this would be a strong move towards something better.

The rules always get written to control the big companies like FB, despite the fact the laws effect the whole marketplace of thousands of companies of different sizes. But big companies like FB have enough lawyers and influence and never really change. Meanwhile the laws cripple all sorts of harmless small-medium sized companies, including potential future better competitors to FB. And the laws stay law for decades before they get fixed, if ever.

There are countless examples of this in other industries. Some of the laws following the 2008 financial crisis are a good example which reduced the market place of hundreds of small banks who couldn’t operate with the new rules and further solidified the positions of the 5 mega banks. So much for ending “too big to fail”.

Idealism of “what should be done” meets reality of always historically ends up happening. If you’re interested in this topic Thomas Sowell included a hundred examples of well intentioned laws having the opposite effect and making problems either worse or stopping the one problem and generating far worse ones (usually after a period of time when every claims the regulation a success and moves on, before the reality of the situation reveals itself).

https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Poverty-Politics-Gordon-Tulloc...

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#76

Post by srkmno »

Apocryphon wrote: post #62
srkmno wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is people and people suck. Facebook is also a scapegoat and to the contrary of what a resentful media industry would like you to believe the sum of their contributions to the world is overwhelmingly positive

Facebook is the tip of the iceberg. For every bad story about Facebook there's at least a dozen about Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Uber, AirBnB, and smaller players. Regulation designed to rein in the heavy hitters will not harm small startups, especially ones whose innovation is built upon careful flouting of law and loophole-seeking, anyway.

Regulation as the result of "bad stories" yeah let heysteria and sensationalism lead the way.

Facebook et al are not the source of all evil, they are actually a source of financial relief to most people, they are only a problem to media companies, and those who write books about how bad they are.

It's healthcare and housing costs that are the bane of everyday people, this media fabricated tech backlash is a strategic distraction.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#77

Post by crooked-v »

wbl wrote: post #57
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? We are flexible and smarter than Vulcans. Something doesn't have to be necessarily expressible into a single, unambiguous universal formula to be made illegal. We can e.g. allow people to perceive things about other people in their brains (or even notebooks)…

Rule of law demands it be clear what is and is not illegal. Make it illegal to film people in public and the guy who made the Rodney King tape is going to jail.

The actual law being proposed in this case is pretty clear-cut.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#78

Post by fzeroracer »

dmix wrote: post #75
fzeroracer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering right now companies like Facebook are very actively making the world a worse place I would say this would be a strong move towards something better.

The rules always get written to control the big companies like FB, despite the fact the laws effect the whole marketplace of thousands of companies of different sizes. But big companies like FB have enough lawyers and influence and never really change. Meanwhile the laws cripple all sorts of harmless small-medium sized companies, including potential future better competitors to FB. And the laws stay law for decades b…

Let's say that your argument is true: That large companies are effectively immune to the law and any type of regulation we pass would simply wash right over them. I don't buy into this one bit considering my personal experience with GDPR at a larger company, but for the sake of argumentation let's follow that logic.

If companies are too large to be affected by law, then the only recourse is for the government to step in and break their monopoly. A company that is unaffected by laws will also have extreme leverage in the free market and have the strength to smother those smaller small-medium sized companies you claim are competitors to FB. It would seem illogical that a company would have the lawyers and influence to ignore regulations, but not be willing to use that same influence to kill competitors.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#79

Post by srkmno »

crooked-v wrote: post #39
srkmno wrote: post #26

Pitchfork mobs dictating policy, that is why you don't elect an ex state attorney general to the legislative branch: prosecution and grandstanding is all they know. Also the principle concept of "stealing your data" is more ludicrous than "stealing" in the copyright sense; that data is meta data and it's not yours, it was generated by machines you don't own and have no claim over.

> that data is meta data and it's not yours, it was generated by machines you don't own and have no claim over I'm pretty sure that, for example, the list of grocery brands someone buys using a store loyalty card isn't "metadata", and while "stealing" is hyperbole, I'm pretty sure most people would be upset upon realizing how far and wide that information is being sold.

Zealots would be upset sure but I'd argue most people won't.

A shopping list is metadata and the issue here is data ownership, you can't own a shopping list, you can't even copyright one, if you don't want it to be associated with you, you should be able to opt out, but no one should be burned at the stake for it.

Re: Proposed Jail Time for Tech Companies Who Steal Data

#80

Post by skh »

wbl wrote: post #57
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is personal information really a kind of property, that can be stolen? If it is, aren’t we doing this all the time, any time we perceive anything about anyone? We are flexible and smarter than Vulcans. Something doesn't have to be necessarily expressible into a single, unambiguous universal formula to be made illegal. We can e.g. allow people to perceive things about other people in their brains (or even notebooks)…

Rule of law demands it be clear what is and is not illegal. Make it illegal to film people in public and the guy who made the Rodney King tape is going to jail.

Rule of law demands it be clear what is and is not illegal.

The fact that we have lawyers who argue over definitions and whatnot suggests that this isn't possible except through case law. Almost all written rules/laws have exceptions. It's incredibly hard to codify even something we all agree on in terms of wanting to outlaw: murder.

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