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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#331
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the rents in popular areas will rise. Since people have a basic income to support them regardless where they are living, they can move to areas with lower rent (thus increasing the rent — and net rental income — of the area they move to). At present, most unemployment benefits systems require the recipient to stay where they are, or move to places with better employment opportunities. This places a large burden…

I figure low-rent areas will have rents go up as well. It may take longer, but it will ripple through the whole economy.

Yes, all rents will rise, but most rents will rise less than the rise in income until rental vacancies hit 0%.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#332
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't rents consume all the economic growth without UBI? They sort of do (at least in some cases; see San Francisco, New York, tons of other big cities). > that is just as important to correct even if we don't adopt UBI. It's not, in any way, an argument against UBI. The fact that the we need to address it doesn't mean we easily can. And doesn't mean that just blindly doing it is justified, just because there s…

> The fact that the we need to address it doesn't mean we easily can. The mechanism for dealing with an essential service that, left to private industry with only normal consumer protection regulation, is difficult to prevent becoming a rent-extracting monopoly or oligopoly is well-established—you make the service a utility, either privately owned but publicly regulated for price and service requirements, or publicly…

> you make the service a utility

This is just a silly idea for housing. Power, water, etc. involves one set of infrastructure that runs across public and private land. It is very difficult to become a utility because of the insane investment required. Because almost no one can compete, it is regulated to prevent the otherwise-inevitable monopoly. Land is in no way the same; it's literally everywhere and many people own it.

Better solution? According to a professor of economics I talked to, it's to create tech hubs in other cities (at least for San Francisco; finance for NY, etc.).

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#333
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figure low-rent areas will have rents go up as well. It may take longer, but it will ripple through the whole economy.

Yes, all rents will rise, but most rents will rise less than the rise in income until rental vacancies hit 0%.

Not sure. In a normal, gradual rise in wages, this might be true. But in a massive, sudden income increase, I personally would try increasing my prices (by at least some) immediately. And more over time.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#334
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you add any sources for this? I see several that support OP's position from a cursory search. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort https://medium.com/the-mission/dont-use-rewards-for-motivati... http://hepg.org/hel-home/issues/10_2/helarticle/the-case-aga...

In your own citation: "Rewards kill creativity. Some twenty studies have shown that people do inferior work when they are expecting to get a reward for doing it, as compared with people doing the same task without any expectation of a reward. That effect is most pronounced when creativity is involved in the task." Would this not suggest that people do their best work when they aren't doing it for the paycheck? In oth…

Artists represent 1.4% of the workforce in America. Lots of people (the ones who need support) don't do jobs requiring creativity.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Only a psychopath would think such a thing. Thinking UBI is not a good idea is not something only psychopaths might believe.

Not psychopaths, more like people who just don't think things through. Arguing against UBI because you don't want to be dependant on things outside your control is definitely something you have to be in that group for.

[deleted]

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#336
post #158
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why you were downvoted because you’re right. A simple thought experiment can prove it: give everyone $1 million every year starting today. Is everyone suddenly rich? Just for a few days. Eventually milk will cost $500/gallon. The effects of Supply and demand can’t be legislated out of existence.

That’s like saying any inflation is bad because if it were a million percent bad things would happen. It doesn’t tell us anything about reality.

The inflation would render the money we gave everyone nearly worthless, by approximately the amount given out. It’s similar to adding six zeros to every bank account.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#337
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that the we need to address it doesn't mean we easily can. The mechanism for dealing with an essential service that, left to private industry with only normal consumer protection regulation, is difficult to prevent becoming a rent-extracting monopoly or oligopoly is well-established—you make the service a utility, either privately owned but publicly regulated for price and service requirements, or publicly…

> you make the service a utility This is just a silly idea for housing. Power, water, etc. involves one set of infrastructure that runs across public and private land. It is very difficult to become a utility because of the insane investment required. Because almost no one can compete, it is regulated to prevent the otherwise-inevitable monopoly. Land is in no way the same; it's literally everywhere and many people o…

> Power, water, etc. involves one set of infrastructure that runs across public and private land.

Yes, that's the reason that they naturally tend to monopoly that is resistant to correction, but it is the fact that they tend that way, and not the reason for that tendency, that justified treatment as a utility.

> Land is in no way the same; it's literally everywhere and many people own it.

Are you arguing that residential rentals do not, in fact, either in general or in specific locales, tend to difficult to correct monopoly? If so, you aren't arguing against my point, which I'll remind you is merely that it doesn't matter if this is true in terms of UBI; if it is true, it is a problem of exactly the same dimension without UBI as with UBI, and thus irrelevant to the debate over UBI, and if it is false, then it's clearly irrelevant to anything.

> Better solution? According to a professor of economics I talked to, it's to create tech hubs in other cities (at least for San Francisco; finance for NY, etc.).

Well, not any kind of solution if you are an academic economist with no concern for pragmatics. Virtually every metro area of notsble size that isn't NY or SF had been trying to do that for a long time. Just choosing a policy result like that isn't a real-world solution, a real-world solution involved a policy action that can reasonably be expected to produce the desired result.

Also, either (1) local housing markets don't tend to monopoly, and this isn't needed, or (2) they do, and this just extends the time slightly before a successful firm in one market diversified into and also monopolizes other markets until you have the same problem nationally that you had in the local markets you tried to provide alternatives to. So, even if you had a mechanism to acheive what is sought as the solution, it wouldn't be a solution.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#338
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't just accept a future of joblessness. It's a terrible waste of human capital. Rather than simply paying people to be unemployed, we should find work for them to do that benefits society in some way. To an extent we need to be investing more in our people, especially in the U.S., but there are also things we could do like large scale infrastructure projects that could help fill the gap for people that don'…

> we should find work for them to do that benefits society in some way introduce basic income and people will make themselves useful.

There is little to no evidence to support this claim. Whereas what I'm talking about was done after the great depression and developed a lot of infrastructure, especially in rural America, that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#339

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

Andrew Yang (pro-UBI candidate for U.S. President) lists as the first benefit of UBI:

> UBI encourages people to find work. Many current welfare programs take away benefits when recipients find work, sometimes leaving them financially worse off than before they were employed. UBI is for all adults, regardless of employment status, so recipients are free to seek additional income, which most everyone does.

Not increasing employment contradicts this claimed benefit.

https://www.yang2020.com/blog/ubi_faqs/benefits-universal-ba...

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#340
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should find work for them to do that benefits society in some way introduce basic income and people will make themselves useful.

There is little to no evidence to support this claim. Whereas what I'm talking about was done after the great depression and developed a lot of infrastructure, especially in rural America, that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

how many of those who have enough money to never work again, never work again?

you severely underestimate the psychological desire to be useful and live a fulfilling life.

the evidence is there - it's ideological convictions that prevent you from seeing and accepting it.

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