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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#301

Post by mcv »

btbuildem wrote: post #225
rixrax wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

Usually war served to reduce that surplus, but with automation in the military as well, this is uncharted territory.

The Black Death in the 14 century killed a third of the population of Europe, which lead to a surprising rise in wages and standards of living.

It's weird and uncomfortable how tragedy sometimes leads to very good things. Similarly in the opposite direction, automation should have been a good thing yet it leads to unemployment and poverty.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#302

Post by bhelkey »

arcticwombat wrote: post #2

Except, of course, that the actual report has not been completed yet. The article has a single quote from a participant, and the rest is literally just opinion and thoughts. There's nothing to get excited about yet. It's going to be very interesting to read the report though, once it's published.

> Miska Simanainen, one of the Kela researchers behind the Finnish study, ... says that while some individuals found work, they were no more likely to do so than a control group of people who weren't given the money.

There is a quote from a participant but the quote is much more convincing.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#303

Post by lazyasciiart »

njarboe wrote: post #266
lazyasciiart wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's psychologically healthy to deny that you are incredibly dependent on things outside your control already.

Sure. Only a psychopath would think such a thing. Thinking UBI is not a good idea is not something only psychopaths might believe.

Not psychopaths, more like people who just don't think things through. Arguing against UBI because you don't want to be dependant on things outside your control is definitely something you have to be in that group for.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#304

Post by unnouinceput »

mcv wrote: post #301
btbuildem wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually war served to reduce that surplus, but with automation in the military as well, this is uncharted territory.

The Black Death in the 14 century killed a third of the population of Europe, which lead to a surprising rise in wages and standards of living. It's weird and uncomfortable how tragedy sometimes leads to very good things. Similarly in the opposite direction, automation should have been a good thing yet it leads to unemployment and poverty.

So Thanos was right all along, no?

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#305

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

matz1 wrote: post #241
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I would expect you to back up your claim with some kind of scientific study that humans in general opt to produce value for society purely altruistically. I highly doubt that’s the case, but I have an open mind and I’d be delighted to be proven wrong. As I understand it, most societal benefit and technological advancement has come from humans acting selfishly. You develop an idea while seeking profit — not nec…

>I mean I would expect you to back up your claim with some kind of scientific study that humans in general opt to produce value for society purely altruistically. That's not what I claiming at all. What I'm saying is if you want to produce value then go ahead keep producing value for whatever reason, it could be purely for selfish reason for all i care. But You still have to pay tax for your income though, thats for…

> But You still have to pay tax for your income though, thats for allowing you to do business.

I don’t think “allowing you to do business” is the arbitrary motivator for taxes. Societies deem it more efficient to pool resources for common needs we all have. This is taxes.

Conventional welfare also provides for a person’s “basic needs”, usually with the condition that that person is actively searching for an opportunity to add value.

People need to add value for societies to prosper. Wealth doesn’t just appear. Bear in mind that the only reason, e.g., Sweden can spend so much on welfare is after long periods of wealth creation through Capitalism.

If enough people are on free money with no incentive to work, there isn’t enough wealth generated to pay for the people living on free money.

> And for people who can't or won't produce value, fine, here is basic income for you so that you can still fulfil your basic needs.

Who gets to decide what a basic need is, anyway? Since I’m paying for it through taxes, I would deem your basic needs as shelter, food, and water. Warmth? Luxury. Television? Luxury.

> So its not one happy person at the expense of someone else.

It really is though. There’s no other way to put it. It’s the consumption of wealth on the back of someone else’s labour.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#307

Post by null000 »

rixrax wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

This isn't a dystopian future, it's a dystopian present.

Most of the work people do today doesn't really need to be done, but we force people to do it anyway for various reasons. https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ (there's also a pretty decent free ebook on the subject by the author)

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#308

Post by 3131s »

njarboe wrote: post #142
LarryDarrell wrote: post #111

Which would be a fine outcome. We're entering a real messy period where dignified, decent paying jobs are becoming scarce. All of our philosophies about work and welfare are rooted in a post WWII era where we were essentially rebuilding the world and there was more work than competent people. If we are going to insist that all productivity gains must now go directly to the capital class, we're going to need a UBI, un…

Do people really want to have all of their support depend on the government? As an American I know people that don't and even reject government paid food stamps and healthcare, although they are poor enough to qualify for them. I don't think it is very psychologically healthy to be so dependent on things out of your control. A better system would be some system where people can earn a large chunk of capital that basi…

> A better system would be some system where people can earn a large chunk of capital that basically sets themselves up with enough to have their own basic income that they control.

There is no reason that UBI isn't compatible with that, and a lot of its proponents would think that UBI will facilitate personal development and entrepreneurship.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#309

Post by Wowfunhappy »

nostrademons wrote: post #298
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is how many people want to live in Wyoming-level densities vs. Paris-level densities. Do they get a choice? I want to live in Disneyland, but there's sadly a distinct lack of real estate available.

That's sort of the definition of a post-scarcity world. If people want stuff but can't have it because there's not enough to go around, that's pretty much the definition of scarcity.

The idea of a "post-scarcity" world is silly. Some resources will always be limited. Land, diamonds, prestige, etc.

What matters is, how scarce are the necessities of a moderately-comfortable life? I would posit that people who live in cities do just fine. If some people want more space, well, you can still work for it. Not all jobs are going to disappear.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#310

Post by 3131s »

hippich wrote: post #229
Qwertystop wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI doesn't prevent you from looking for work on top of it - that's what "unconditional" means here.

Indeed. People who want to achieve something - they will be quite happy about it. But seeing retired parents not knowing what to do about their lives (because they dedicated whole life to getting their children ahead and working their ass off to do that, and now they done with it - what next?) - suggests that there is more to it, than just covering basic needs.

No need to infantilize the retirement-age elderly -- the ones that want to work can still work, and they'll do so in a better job market with less power asymmetry between employers and employees.
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