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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#251

Post by leereeves »

zafka wrote: post #97
leereeves wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. And yet the US has full employment. Could it be that Finland lacks jobs for some reason other than technology?

The US does not have full employment. The actual percentage of working age people who are employed is below peak levels. Also quite a few people are working part time.

> The US does not have full employment.

* Citation needed.

Here's the Fed saying we are:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-kaplan/feds-kapla...

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#252

Post by simonsarris »

Reedx wrote: post #120
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

Has there been any exploration of a version of Basic Income in exchange for community service? There's a virtually endless amount of unskilled work that could be done to improve the environment and people's lives.

I have proposed something similar here:

https://medium.com/s/free-money/guaranteed-minimum-agricultu...

(I use agriculture as the catchy example because almost every community could use some amount of it, but it goes well beyond that)

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#253

Post by function_seven »

DougN7 wrote: post #155
psadri wrote: post #129

Handing out free money will most likely just cause inflation and defeat itself. The inflation will make the amount paid out in basic income insufficient to live on. The alternate to basic income for the purpose of housing, health and food, is to provide a basic version of those resources at zero cost.

I don’t know why you were downvoted because you’re right. A simple thought experiment can prove it: give everyone $1 million every year starting today. Is everyone suddenly rich? Just for a few days. Eventually milk will cost $500/gallon. The effects of Supply and demand can’t be legislated out of existence.

We don't have enough money in the supply to provide $1m to everyone annually.

UBI isn't a money-printing operation. It's a redistribution scheme. The money supply is fixed, but some of it is scraped off the top of the mountain and used to fill in the valley below.

Yes, there would be inflation as a result. But not as much as the median increase in income.

Say that gallon of milk is $5 today. UBI increases all incomes by $10,000 a year. Milk may rise to $5.50/gal (10% inflation), but the median income would have risen something like 25%.

UBI might still be a bad idea, or have unintended consequences, but they're going to be more subtle and indirect than hyperinflation.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#254

Post by manicdee »

This experiment was performed in 2017. The basic criticisms of it are:

- participants selected only from long term unemployed - Finland was still in a period of austerity following recession (low hiring rate) - tiny sample population - limited period - stingy, the amount provided doesn't really provide a basic income

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#255

Post by zafka »

leereeves wrote: post #251
zafka wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does not have full employment. The actual percentage of working age people who are employed is below peak levels. Also quite a few people are working part time.

> The US does not have full employment. * Citation needed. Here's the Fed saying we are: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-kaplan/feds-kapla...

From a similar time frame: https://slate.com/business/2018/05/the-unemployment-rate-is-...

Just like the cost of living index, Politicians often use misleading techniques to calculate "employment rate"

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#256

Post by throwaway427 »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

How does one contend with inflation when money is free? Is the idea that goods are produced so cheaply that the basic living costs are stable?

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#257

Post by Svoka »

yason wrote: post #121

The experiment was probably staked with an agenda to show that UBI doesn't work, given the parties in the government and the massive bias in selecting the participants. The sample of 2000 people were chosen from a group of unemployed people . I think the criteria for being randomly chosen was having been paid unemployment benefits during some range of dates. So it's not representative of a real UBI at all: the point…

I think experiment totally fine, just “journalists” decided to put smear into title. I would say that this experiment is successful: UBI did not prevent people from finding jobs, just made them less stressed about it. Current title is little clickbaity

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#258

Post by leereeves »

zafka wrote: post #255
leereeves wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US does not have full employment. * Citation needed. Here's the Fed saying we are: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-kaplan/feds-kapla...

From a similar time frame: https://slate.com/business/2018/05/the-unemployment-rate-is-... Just like the cost of living index, Politicians often use misleading techniques to calculate "employment rate"

Alright then, let's look at this index that article proposes:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS12300060

At 79.9, it's not quite record high employment, but it's close.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#260

Post by elindbe2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #189
cromulent wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. In addition, from an employer's perspective, it unlocks easy employment of people without massive commitment from either side. Can I do a few hours work for this guy without losing my unemployment? Yes. Can I employ this person for a few hours without having to pay them while on paternity leave to make sure their kid gets a good start to life? Yes.

> Can I do a few hours work for this guy without losing my unemployment? UBI doesn't really make sense as a replacement for unemployment insurance, unless benefits are really high. If you replace UI with a poverty-support-level UBI, it makes unemployment a lot worse for anyone but the lowest-paid workers. UBI might reduce the perceived need for public funding of additional unemployment benefits in extended downturns…

UBI doesn't really make sense as a replacement to almost any traditional welfare programs for the simple reason that by limiting the money to only those who qualify for it, you can give more. Yet unfortunately UBI is often presented as an alternative that would supplant traditional welfare.
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