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Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

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Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#211

Post by dfinninger »

chillacy wrote: post #189
duxup wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is very possible, even with ads. So ads are often a place where dark patterns happen and such. But take Apple for instance. Apple seems to respect user privacy to a fairly far extent compared to say, Facebook, Google. If apple wasn't around ... we would probably say something about "you can't have these fancy smartphones without someone stealing all your data". But clearly Apple can do it (for a lot of rea…

Privacy is one of the features that helps the iPhone sell for over a thousand dollars. I remember one of the Amazon Kindles sold 2 versions: one with ads that was cheaper, and one without ads that was more expensive. So people do pay at least to get rid of ads (I'm sure both versions collect your data), it just costs more, and most end up not being able to afford it. For all the good in the iPhone, year after year an…

Just had to replace a Kindle. They sell one version now, with ads, and you can turn them off permanently by making a one-time payment though your Amazon account. They also offer it as a check box during checkout.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#212

Post by tomatocracy »

chillacy wrote: post #189
duxup wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is very possible, even with ads. So ads are often a place where dark patterns happen and such. But take Apple for instance. Apple seems to respect user privacy to a fairly far extent compared to say, Facebook, Google. If apple wasn't around ... we would probably say something about "you can't have these fancy smartphones without someone stealing all your data". But clearly Apple can do it (for a lot of rea…

Privacy is one of the features that helps the iPhone sell for over a thousand dollars. I remember one of the Amazon Kindles sold 2 versions: one with ads that was cheaper, and one without ads that was more expensive. So people do pay at least to get rid of ads (I'm sure both versions collect your data), it just costs more, and most end up not being able to afford it. For all the good in the iPhone, year after year an…

Not sure you can conclude that most can’t afford the ad free version from what’s publicly known.

They still sell both versions, presumably if only very very few people bought the ad free version then they would have stopped selling it.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#213

Post by tokyodude »

asdkhadsj wrote: post #107
duxup wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like a fun challenge. It's just ads. If we're talking about some ad for a coffee maker, whatever. Now their whole selling data to unscrupulous folks, taking money from parents via their kids, selling fake news that makes people hate other people (now that gets into the ad space...) .... That's where I'd want to nope out.

Thank you. I feel like ads have such a bad rap because of the state of the internet. Yet, what does everyone expect? Is it shocking that content providers want money for their product? And yes, I know, some sites and ads do terrible things. The actively hurt viewership. BUT, isn't that the same with everything ? Even my groceries are getting worse as companies seek ways to increase profits without pissing me off; the…

It is us that's the problem. We keep using these services.

Your groceries getting worse remind me that I used to enjoy Blue Diamond almonds. I'd get them at the local Walgreens. Then Walgreens decided to replace them with their own "Nice" brand. They were crap. Not even remotely the same quality, first bag was barely cheweble, and of course not the same flavors. They did the same with Q-Tips, replacing them for "Nice" cotton swabs. Again, complete crap, cotton falls off, not as thick, sticks break easily.

But even worse, almost no one except me cared. If people cared it wouldn't last because people would stop buying the crap brand and Walgreen would get the message but most people don't care

This came up with my roommate who basically always bought the cheapest spaghetti sauce. When I asked her if why that one she said effectively "any spaghetti sauce is the same as another so I just always get the cheapest" to which I was shocked. They aren't remotely similar to my taste buds and also now understanding why everything gets worse, because most people apparently are fine with anything or can't tell the difference or don't find the differences important.

It's the same for FB. Most of my friends are unlikely to ever leave. Whether it's because it doesn't bother them or because they don't think about it or because they just take it all for granted, it seems to be a combination of all of those which effectively means FB gets no signal to make things better.

Heck, as another example the complaints are loud here about the MacbookPro's keyboard/touchbar/weight etc but sales are higher than ever which means the complainers are not remotely a signal to change things.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#214

Post by reaperducer »

manigandham wrote: post #204
reaperducer wrote: post #163

At first I thought that this might be another good indication that having "Facebook" on your resume isn't the golden egg it once was. Then I realize it's even better than before because it demonstrates for a potential employer that you'll push whatever buttons you're asked to in exchange for money, regardless of whether it's good for the user, the internet, or society as a whole.

It's a giant company with many roles. I'd be more worried about people hiring based on such strange judgements of character.

I'd be more worried about people hiring based on such strange judgements of character.

I wouldn't. Over the decades I've seen many people hire, and later regret hiring, people who demonstrated poor character.

In a more public sense, remember the Bush-Clinton election where the full version of the fabled "It's the economy, stupid" slogan was "Character doesn't matter; it's the economy, stupid." And we see what happened when someone of poor character got power and an intern.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#215

Post by fahrradflucht »

I'm not sure this has anything to do with adblockers. It could just be that they generate class names which is common in modern frontend build chains, wrap things in a lot of divs because they compose the styles in some kind of design system and have some kind of S hack to let UI text wrap at syllables.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#216

Post by jackstraw14 »

JacobJans wrote: post #201
andrepd wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me ads are fundamentally about misleading you, manipulating you, or in short: making you do something that you wouldn't do otherwise. This to me is morally wrong on a base level. Advertisement is an attempt to attack/manipulate your vulnerable mammal brain to make you do something against your interest (be it buying a product, voting on someone, etc). In other words, to do something that you wouldn't do rationally…

This is a very immature view of advertising, that, unfortunately many advertisers share -- and it leads to scummy ads, with no eye on the long term relationship with the person viewing the ad. However, many ads are not deceptive in any way, and instead simply offer something of value to people who may be interested, without any deceit, psychological trick, or ulterior motive. Just because there are bad ads does not m…

I'd say the ads are still deceptive even if they weren't created with that intention. It doesn't need to be sneaky, but if it's unsolicited then the consumer didn't opt for their attention to be steered toward it.

edit: removed example as it distracts from the point.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#217

Post by sizzle »

locklock wrote: post #11

I'm really thankful I haven't yet had a job where all I'm developing is new ways to force people to see ads. Imagine working on a 'feature' like this for weeks or months, and the end result is simply that people who don't want to see ads now have to see ads.

A huge reason a lot of people take these jobs is the insane TC (total compensation) complete with eye popping bonuses/RSUs that non FAANG can't touch considering they expect you to be grateful for their 1-4% annual increase at your typical Fortune 500.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#218

Post by nine_k »

locklock wrote: post #11

I'm really thankful I haven't yet had a job where all I'm developing is new ways to force people to see ads. Imagine working on a 'feature' like this for weeks or months, and the end result is simply that people who don't want to see ads now have to see ads.

Right now I'm looking for a job, and I consciously reject interview requests with adtech companies.

I don't want to work for a company products of which I would rather not use, and help others to avoid using.

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#219

Post by thaumaturgy »

asdkhadsj wrote: post #107
duxup wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like a fun challenge. It's just ads. If we're talking about some ad for a coffee maker, whatever. Now their whole selling data to unscrupulous folks, taking money from parents via their kids, selling fake news that makes people hate other people (now that gets into the ad space...) .... That's where I'd want to nope out.

Thank you. I feel like ads have such a bad rap because of the state of the internet. Yet, what does everyone expect? Is it shocking that content providers want money for their product? And yes, I know, some sites and ads do terrible things. The actively hurt viewership. BUT, isn't that the same with everything ? Even my groceries are getting worse as companies seek ways to increase profits without pissing me off; the…

> I imagine an argument could be made that all and any ads are terrible.

And I'll be happy to make it.

Advertising in its most optimized form is terrible, and it's terrible in ways that most people aren't even conscious of. Even in the relatively plodding print and television markets, modern advertising relies on numerous principles of human psychology to subtly alter the way you think about a product, a company, or yourself [1] [2]. Worse still, these tactics are being used on children, in a society which otherwise broadly accepts that mind-altering substances are especially harmful to youth [3].

Advertising is furthermore in a codependent relationship with the content it's injected into. For the advertising to be successful, it has to compete against the content for your attention. Likewise, the content needs to compete against its ads for your attention too. The natural result of this co-opetition between ads and content has been the clickbait headlines and junk content that are ubiquitous now, that everyone hates but can't seem to avoid [4], and this is having deep and powerful impacts on how we all view the world.

Recently, other organizations -- like nation-states -- have realized that they can use all of the psychological effects understood by the advertising industry against a population which willingly accepts advertising while believing that it's immune to its effects. These organizations are weaponizing advertising, making us hate each other over our politics [5] and further dividing us ideologically [6].

And these are just advertising's intentional effects, the stuff that works the way that the advertising industry wants it to work, or as well as they can figure out right now anyway. Sometimes they get it wrong, especially when it comes to trying to market products to people using the vast wealth of personal information that we unknowingly provide with every page view. When this data model makes mistakes, it ends up marketing an endless stream of baby-related products and services to parents whose child didn't survive birth [7].

The future of the web is not dependent on advertising. Some are arguing that the future of the web, and maybe even the health of our society, depends on weaning ourselves off of the advertising tit [8]. Some of us grew up along with the web and remember what it was like before its unfortunate marriage to advertising, and we hope that it comes to its senses and gets a divorce while it still has a chance at a healthy relationship with society.

Advertising is inherently unhealthy for our psychology. It can't help it. Like everything else, it wants to be as successful as it can, and its success depends on how effectively it can manipulate us while fooling us into believing we're not being manipulated at all.

[1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ulterior-motives/201...

[2]: https://prezi.com/2cekh73hothi/psychological-effects-of-adve...

[3]: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/Supplement...

[4]: https://medium.com/@tobiasrose/the-enemy-in-our-feeds-e86511...

[5]: https://fathom.info/fakebook/

[6]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-ads/majority-of-...

[7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18665048

[8]: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/08/adver...

Re: Facebook adds 5 divs, 9 spans and 30 CSS classes to every post in the timeline

#220

Post by manigandham »

reaperducer wrote: post #214
manigandham wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a giant company with many roles. I'd be more worried about people hiring based on such strange judgements of character.

I'd be more worried about people hiring based on such strange judgements of character. I wouldn't. Over the decades I've seen many people hire, and later regret hiring, people who demonstrated poor character. In a more public sense, remember the Bush-Clinton election where the full version of the fabled "It's the economy, stupid" slogan was "Character doesn't matter; it's the economy, stupid." And we see what happene…

The post is about judging people's character simply by where they work and in the most ungracious terms. Doing that actually is poor character.
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