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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#201

Post by jrs95 »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

We shouldn't just accept a future of joblessness. It's a terrible waste of human capital. Rather than simply paying people to be unemployed, we should find work for them to do that benefits society in some way. To an extent we need to be investing more in our people, especially in the U.S., but there are also things we could do like large scale infrastructure projects that could help fill the gap for people that don't have the knowledge/skill for many of the jobs that can't be automated.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#202

Post by [deleted] »

benj111 wrote: post #114
rixrax wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

I always think of Star Trek. It isn't really explored in depth but there isn't money and people don't have to work, transporter rationing is alluded to though. I guess in a world where everything can be made in a replicator, 'employment' becomes untenable. You still need some way of rationing scarce resources, and allowing people to 'vote' for what they want more of though.

[deleted]

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#204

Post by dragonwriter »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #161
Retric wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarcity is beyond just stuff. Land for example is a finite resource.

It is and it isn't. Land in Manhattan is scarce. Land in the non-coastal western US or most of Canada or Australia is theoretically scarce too, but not so much in practice.

> Land in the non-coastal western US or most of Canada or Australia is theoretically scarce too, but not so much in practice.

If the acquisition cost is >0, it is scarce in practice as well as theory.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#205

Post by cromulent »

dragonwriter wrote: post #189
cromulent wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. In addition, from an employer's perspective, it unlocks easy employment of people without massive commitment from either side. Can I do a few hours work for this guy without losing my unemployment? Yes. Can I employ this person for a few hours without having to pay them while on paternity leave to make sure their kid gets a good start to life? Yes.

> Can I do a few hours work for this guy without losing my unemployment? UBI doesn't really make sense as a replacement for unemployment insurance, unless benefits are really high. If you replace UI with a poverty-support-level UBI, it makes unemployment a lot worse for anyone but the lowest-paid workers. UBI might reduce the perceived need for public funding of additional unemployment benefits in extended downturns…

Yeah, your point is strongly supported by this experiment. The majority of the UBI recipient subjects switched to standard unemployment, which was of greater value.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#206

Post by herostratus101 »

Silicon Valley People: We need basic income because there aren't enough jobs for low-skilled workers.

Also Silicon Valley People: Let's have open borders and import unlimited numbers of low-skilled workers. Doing anything else is racist!

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#207

Post by StephenAmar »

rixrax wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

The Expanse (books and TV show) use that idea pretty well

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#208

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

lixtra wrote: post #37

While this article is about an even more special population of UBI recipients I have two general criticisms about UBI studies: 1. They are usually time limited. You can expect different behavior if you get financial security for limited time or for life. 2. Most studies seem to be externally financed (here the whole state vs a small population). The interesting part is if people are willing to pay for this within the…

> Are you okay to pay for your slacking neighbor (even if she is the exception and UBI turns out to be overall good)?

Finnish society has already shown this willingness to pay. All mainstream political parties support the existing welfare state for the most part, and any Finn knows a few people who live on benefits and want to avoid any kind of hard work.

Furthermore, over the 20th century the Church and other forms of private philanthropy have dwindled away in Finnish society. The average Finn today does not want to have to make an effort to personally help out other people, and engage in uncomfortable social interaction, even if we are talking about their neighbours. (After all, those living in blocks of flats rarely even know their neighbours.) So, Finns are quite happy to have a wide social safety net provided by the state – even if it is sometimes "abused" – in order to save them the effort of returning to a charity model where real effort and personal interaction would be expected of them.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#209

Post by code_duck »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

> The aim was to see if a guaranteed safety net would help people find jobs I'm confused, was that ever the expected goal of basic income?

Right, this article seems to be so intentionally missing the point that one has to wonder if it's an attempt at manipulation.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#210

Post by erik_seaberg »

psadri wrote: post #129

Handing out free money will most likely just cause inflation and defeat itself. The inflation will make the amount paid out in basic income insufficient to live on. The alternate to basic income for the purpose of housing, health and food, is to provide a basic version of those resources at zero cost.

Housing prices are mostly high due to shortages within specific labor market areas. If displaced workers can leave, that puts a lot more competitive options in their reach.
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