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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#111

Post by LarryDarrell »

Which would be a fine outcome. We're entering a real messy period where dignified, decent paying jobs are becoming scarce. All of our philosophies about work and welfare are rooted in a post WWII era where we were essentially rebuilding the world and there was more work than competent people. If we are going to insist that all productivity gains must now go directly to the capital class, we're going to need a UBI, universal healthcare and housing guarantees.

I worry that greed is too baked in, and those that have would rather let the world burn before they give the current system up.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#112

Post by ThomPete »

rixrax wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

I don't picture a dystopian future. I picture a post-scarcity future.

So I am all for these experiments but judging them based on whether people stay jobless is missing the point of UBI in such a fundamental way it's hard to understate that.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#113

Post by gambiting »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #94
pastor_elm wrote: post #58

did they really have to study this? We have decades of welfare to analyze. UBI is dead in the water. Call it a negative tax rate instead.

UBI is different from welfare because you don’t have to qualify for it, so it removes any incentives to alter your life to qualify for welfare.

Poland has an interesting example that could be used as UBI experiement. Recently introduced "500+" program pays 500PLN(~$130/£100) for every child after the first one(or all if the family has no other source of income).

Now, to you westerners $130/month might sound like nothing, but actually, with 3-4 children you are getting a regular salary for effectively doing nothing, without any extra conditions. And apart from the loss of the benefit for the 1st child if you get a job, nothing stops you from working and yet still collecting the benefit. It has improved the living conditions in Poland considerably, and families with children can now afford a lot more than they could previously. I personally know one company that lost a decent chunk of its staff to it - why work for you while I can get similar amount of money and stay at home? Of course the question of whether Poland can afford such a generous program is a different question altogether, but it cannot be denied that for many people this completely unconditional injection of cash is absolutely equivalent to UBI.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#114

Post by benj111 »

rixrax wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

I always think of Star Trek. It isn't really explored in depth but there isn't money and people don't have to work, transporter rationing is alluded to though. I guess in a world where everything can be made in a replicator, 'employment' becomes untenable. You still need some way of rationing scarce resources, and allowing people to 'vote' for what they want more of though.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#115

Post by alekseypo »

lixtra wrote: post #37

While this article is about an even more special population of UBI recipients I have two general criticisms about UBI studies: 1. They are usually time limited. You can expect different behavior if you get financial security for limited time or for life. 2. Most studies seem to be externally financed (here the whole state vs a small population). The interesting part is if people are willing to pay for this within the…

As long as the disbursal is direct (handled by the FR for example), and cuts out bloated gov. orgs.

As it pertains to other people, I see it as a floor that will hopefully help people unlock their potential by taking some of the pressure off the exchange of time for wages and focusing it on the meaning of work.

If people want to do nothing beyond their UBI income, that's fine - but I don't see this being a widespread phenomenon. It covers the basics, and we have a tendency to yearn for more.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#116

Post by sakisv »

I think the idea of UBI as it is, makes it an easy target for comments that characterize people as "freeloaders" or trading "something" for "nothing".

The problem is that the UBI seems to be coming from the taxes that other people, which may be a good first iteration to try something out, but it will fail in scale.

I will assume that the aim of these experiments is to find a way to provide for an ever increasing number of people at a time that the number and the quality of jobs is dropping, largely being replaced by automated systems. Last year the governor of bank of England voiced concerns about the automation stripping out jobs which could "lead to a rise of marxism"[1].

I find the idea of a UB Dividend[2], or social dividend[3] instead something which would have more chances to succeed. The main idea behind it is that everyone will be entitled to a dividend which will be funded by private companies. So instead of having the Apples and Googles of the world sitting on a pile of cash, they could put a portion of their earnings in a fund which would then be given back to everyone to allow them to continue to purchase their products and services.

1: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mark-carney-...

2: https://medium.com/dark-mountain/universal-dividend-a988c31c...

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dividend

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#117

Post by nabla9 »

timonoko wrote: post #3

TL;DR: They got the same unemployment money (~555€) as before, but it was called Basic Income. But they did not have to partake the quarterly motivation shit from jobless office anymore. Which made them indeed happier. Success!

There has been much better experiments in the US using Alaska Permanent Fund and creating synthetic Alaska elsewhere in the US to compare against.

The Labor Market Impacts of Universal and Permanent Cash Transfers: Evidence from the Alaska Permanent Fund https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3118343

The study provides some interesting and insightful results:

>... we show suggestive evidence that tradable sectors experience employment reductions, while non-tradable sectors do not. Overall, our results suggest that a universal and permanent cash transfer does not significantly decrease aggregate employment.

It makes sense that jobs that can be moved elsewhere decrease a little, because people have more bargaining power.

It also makes sense, that there is no effect when jobs can't be exported. Employers just pay little more because UBI also creates demand.

People still like to buy stuff with all that UBI money. Someone has to work to make tings to sell. In large economic region–US or EU–the effect of UBI would have no noticeable effect to employment.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#118

Post by Eridrus »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

Besides the job thing, there are a lot of UBI criticisms around the "dignity if work" and how UBI will make them unhappy, so I am glad this exists as a counterargument.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#119

Post by baronswindle »

blakejustblake wrote: post #104
SirHound wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone working an hour a week counts as employed.

I wonder if the rise of gig-economy type work has dirtied the employment data pool? If you're out of work and looking for a employment, yet you're still scraping by a few bucks every week due to Uber or Lyft or something similar, and you're a part of a significant percentage of people doing the same then unemployment numbers probably aren't as pretty as some would like us to believe.

U6 unemployment numbers include workers who are employed part time but would prefer to be full time, and U6 is near all time lows.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#120

Post by Reedx »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

Has there been any exploration of a version of Basic Income in exchange for community service?

There's a virtually endless amount of unskilled work that could be done to improve the environment and people's lives.

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