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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#101

Post by [deleted] »

leereeves wrote: post #81
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

> there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. And yet the US has full employment. Could it be that Finland lacks jobs for some reason other than technology?

[deleted]

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#102

Post by etrautmann »

mongol wrote: post #64
lixtra wrote: post #37

While this article is about an even more special population of UBI recipients I have two general criticisms about UBI studies: 1. They are usually time limited. You can expect different behavior if you get financial security for limited time or for life. 2. Most studies seem to be externally financed (here the whole state vs a small population). The interesting part is if people are willing to pay for this within the…

It can never be time unlimited. Laws can change and will change eventually. Any reasoning about UBI for life is flawed.

Well, neither extreme seems right. We reasonably expect Medicare to pay out for decades and plan around that even if there's a possibility of laws changing.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#104

Post by blakejustblake »

SirHound wrote: post #83
leereeves wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. And yet the US has full employment. Could it be that Finland lacks jobs for some reason other than technology?

Someone working an hour a week counts as employed.

I wonder if the rise of gig-economy type work has dirtied the employment data pool? If you're out of work and looking for a employment, yet you're still scraping by a few bucks every week due to Uber or Lyft or something similar, and you're a part of a significant percentage of people doing the same then unemployment numbers probably aren't as pretty as some would like us to believe.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#105

Post by samnwa »

rixrax wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

Why not just optimize human output like China did and incentivize education in fields that provide large scale value to society (STEM primarily) so that children are likely to deliver commensurate value to society to their costs?

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#106

Post by ThomPete »

leereeves wrote: post #81
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

> there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. And yet the US has full employment. Could it be that Finland lacks jobs for some reason other than technology?

That an entirely different discussion.

My point is that saying "people are happy but jobless" is missing the point of UBI.

UBI at this point is more an experimental pilot project to see what it does to people not to actually figure out how to pay for it which is another discussion also.

What it's not a pilot project for is to see if people get jobs as it's a proposed solution for a jobsless future for most.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#107

Post by 52-6F-62 »

acslater00 wrote: post #59

Surprising that paying people to not work didn't lead to more people working!

It would have been nice if Ontario was permitted to finish our Basic Income pilot project. It would have been a valuable other data point. Sadly it was killed off before we could see any results.

The project in progress, however, saw people leave their existing jobs to, get this: go back to school full time so they could improve their lot, have children, or start businesses.

[Instead they got the rug pulled out from under them ~1 year into the program by the new government after being told they could rely on the program for 3 years]

I know it's a bit of snark, but your take is a bit simplistic and hand-wavy.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#108

Post by cromulent »

arcticwombat wrote: post #2

Except, of course, that the actual report has not been completed yet. The article has a single quote from a participant, and the rest is literally just opinion and thoughts. There's nothing to get excited about yet. It's going to be very interesting to read the report though, once it's published.

There's a webcast here:

http://videonet.fi/web/stm/2019028/eng/

They are very open that the trial was not perfect and should be bigger / longer / better structured. Obviously economic experiments cannot control all variables.

Interesting that the majority of the UBI recipients switched back to standard unemployment.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#109

Post by agumonkey »

matz1 wrote: post #92
agumonkey wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tough sell you gotta admit it. That money came from someone making an effort (even if it was in form of large [reluctant]corporate taxes). Also slacking (I am half a slacker on the way to ~zero) is toxic on the long run. I always thought of universal income as way to allow me to grow without a burden. Learning, helping, producing (whether art, tools, ...). It's supposed to help strengthen the social tissue.

yes that money came from someone making an effort, but on the premise that it came from someone who derive happiness by doing the work not because of necessity.

it's hard to ensure honestly

but I think we agree, the goal is to reduce faux-slavery due to the need for basics necessities

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#110

Post by icebraining »

samnwa wrote: post #105
rixrax wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

Why not just optimize human output like China did and incentivize education in fields that provide large scale value to society (STEM primarily) so that children are likely to deliver commensurate value to society to their costs?

In Finland there's no tuition and almost all students get financial aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_financial_aid_(Finland...
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