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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#81

Post by leereeves »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

> there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most.

And yet the US has full employment.

Could it be that Finland lacks jobs for some reason other than technology?

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#82

Post by msluyter »

mises wrote: post #48

I still see some big issues with universal basic income, and would appreciate one of its supporters responding to some of them: Cost. $3.8 trillion by many estimates. That's nearly 20% of America's GDP. How is it possible to pull this much money out of the American economy without crashing it? Scope. I am of the opinion that one of the beauties of federalism is that policies can be tested first at the state level bef…

To your list of issues I'd add extraction by rentiers.

My (perhaps naive) understanding is that rents tend to rise to a market equilibrium. Infuse the the aggregate market in an area with X dollars, and rents will rise to consume X.

I'd be curious to hear counterarguments to that point.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#83

Post by SirHound »

leereeves wrote: post #81
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

> there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. And yet the US has full employment. Could it be that Finland lacks jobs for some reason other than technology?

Someone working an hour a week counts as employed.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#84

Post by jerf »

gyaniv wrote: post #71
yasp wrote: post #53

Did they not have an identical cohort serving as a control to compare employment rates at the end of the trial?

The did. and the result showed that their employment chances were 'no more likely to do so than a control group of people who weren't given the money.' What they didn't do (although some wanted them to), is also check the system on already employed people and checked if that changed their likelihood of staying in a bad job/finding a better job or anything like that. Because that's the real idea behind basic income. n…

Increasingly I feel like all my philosophical problems with UBI are irrelevant in the face of the fact that apparently UBI is too expensive to even do a proper small-scale trial. If we can't afford that, we even moreso can't afford simply leaping to full scale.

(And one thing these trial do seem to show is that giving it out, and then removing it, is at least modestly disruptive.)

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#85

Post by matz1 »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #42
matz1 wrote: post #10

So that if they are happier then that IS success. Job or no job is irrelevant.

It is absolutely relevant. That money isn't just pulled from the ether. Another citizen worked to produce that value which is distributed through UBI. One happy person at the expense of someone else is not success.

The money (tax) will be pulled regardless. It's the cost of doing business. You should be producing value because producing value make you happier. Basic income enable both type people to be happy.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#86

Post by cromulent »

acslater00 wrote: post #59

Surprising that paying people to not work didn't lead to more people working!

It's different to the normal dole in that you can take on part time work without losing the benefit.

This is not "paying people not to work" - that is a bad characterization of this trial, but maybe an accurate characterization of the dole. It's saying: Here's your minimum money, go and see what you can do.

For a local business owner, it's a big deal to take on a full time employee. If they have UBI, it is not. This makes it attractive and less risky for employers to give a few hours here and there.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#87

Post by gevi99 »

pastor_elm wrote: post #58

did they really have to study this? We have decades of welfare to analyze. UBI is dead in the water. Call it a negative tax rate instead.

That's what they said about Brexit. We live in times were populists are propped up. To change that the media/social media has to drastically alter. Until it does expect more and more pandering.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#88

Post by drcode »

cromulent wrote: post #79
timonoko wrote: post #3

TL;DR: They got the same unemployment money (~555€) as before, but it was called Basic Income. But they did not have to partake the quarterly motivation shit from jobless office anymore. Which made them indeed happier. Success!

No, the key difference was that you could also earn money from other work without losing the government money. This means that you can take on part time jobs without freaking out that you will lose unemployment. This also means (for local business owners) that you can hire people for part time / spec work without being concerned about long term effects. This is a big deal for small businesses.

...which of course the study showed they didn't do, it showed the cohort did not take on more part time jobs.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#89

Post by rixrax »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income.

If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to keep all these people busy, preoccupied, and happy.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#90

Post by knight-of-lambd »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #45

In Ontario Canada, our outgoing government tried basic income as well. It increased unemployment in the pilot cities. So our new government eliminated basic income quickly because it was the opposite of the general trend of all other cities. The reality is that people don't need money. Money is important but what people need is a purpose and goals. Which a basic income system does not provide. https://www.youtube.com…

How do you know this when the study was cancelled a year early (by a Conservative gov't, no less)
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