Live data from Hacker News

German for Programmers

wickedchicken.github.io

41–50 of 266 posts

Re: German for Programmers

#41

"Probably the first difficulty people run into when leaning German is memorizing the gender of each noun and properly declining that noun’s articles when used in a sentence." It really depends on what your mother tongue is. I personally like the analogies. You can do things differently with language. Some languages use more words to convey some information, others encode the information in the words' gender/declinati…

Memorizing gender: I hear the trick is not to do it separately ("1. I know the word 'Mädchen'. 2. Its gender is feminine.") but as an integral part of the word ("1. I know the word 'das_Mädchen'.").

Also completely forget the non-grammatical male / female association. Treat it like quarks in physics (up, down, strange, charm, bottom, and top): Words with the same name as familiar but mostly unrelated concepts.

Or maybe like "open(2)" vs. "open(3)".

https://linux.die.net/man/2/open

https://linux.die.net/man/3/open

Example: "die Steuer" (tax) vs. "das Steuer" (rudder)

Re: German for Programmers

#42
American who moved to Switzerland 1.5 years ago and learning High German (now in A2).

Hardest thing for me right know is knowing when it is appropriate to use the Akkusativ versus Dativ cases. Declining is always difficult, especially considering that adjectives are declined and also this declination depends on the presence and kind of article (which is also declined).

I love Switzerland but since I am learning High German it means the Swiss are more likely to talk English to me if they know it (completely understandable, given the relationship between High German and Swiss German). So practicing is intimidating or can feel rude if I try to stick to High German in this case.

Re: German for Programmers

#43

Tip for remembering if a noun is male, female or neuter, visualize it as burning/being burnt/blowing up for coding female and freezing for coding male. Of course you can reverse the system if you prefer. Also in my experience, reading text eventually is the most efficient way to learn a language, including the grammatical pecularities. If you come upon the phrase "das kalte Bier", you know that it is "das Bier". At t…

Lots of reading is how my high school English became adequate enough to write a Ph. D. thesis. As soon as I started reading books, the language just clicked. Before that it was just endless amounts of grammar and vocabulary. Also reading something interesting is a bit more engaging than processing endless amounts of meaningless dialogs and other examples from grammar books. The first book you pick up will be a bit of a struggle but that is kind of the point. It gets progressively easier. I remember doing something similar with French and being able to process a simple novel but sadly I never pushed through and I've since forgotten most of my high-school French.

A few tips, for reading. 1) don't use translation dictionaries and instead look up words in the native dictionary. E.g. Merriam Webster is great for English. English words explained in English gives you a good sense of the full context of the word. It's all about getting a sense of context of words and constructs. 2) So, try figuring out things from their context. Language has lots of redundancies and you can sort of skim a sentence and get a rough idea of what it means even if it contains verbs and nouns you have never seen. A fun little exercise is transposing all the verbs in a sentence with something non-sensical like "fu--". Many sentences continue to make way more sense than they should after that. 3) Languages like English, German, Dutch, Swedish, etc. have lots of common roots. This can help you as well. Understanding the etymology of words that look similar across languages can help as well. E.g. English has lots of nautical terms adapted from Dutch, lots of French words that the Normans introduced and quite a bit of viking stuff as well. I actually picked up some Swedish when I was living there a long time ago; enough to be able to process simple Danish and Norwegian as well.

That being said, my German still sucks even after living in Berlin for many years. So do as I say, and not as I do ...

Re: German for Programmers

#44
post #11

> Prepositions claim different areas of ‘cognitive space’ in English and German The thing about pre/postpositions is, their use is almost entirely idiomatic in modern language, i.e. it doesn't follow from the meaning of individual parts and thus doesn't translate without reconstruction. In English, afaict, practically all adpositions signify relations in space or time, plus there are ‘of’ and ‘for.’ However, once you…

Right. In HTTP on TCP over IP? Speaking "on" English doesn't seem so strange if we can talk over (i.e. through) the radio. And English gets so much less reasonable. "Put up" is to house, "put down" is to insult, "put up with " is to suffer, "put through" is to test, "put around" is to spread, "put in" to contribute, "put out" to have sex or produce, "put over" either to delay or to decieve, "put past" to offer, "put…

> In HTTP on TCP over IP?

I think I would use over for all of those. Is that wrong?

And English phrasal verbs aren't really different from German verbs with separable prefixes. I agree though that it's one of the harder parts of the language.

Re: German for Programmers

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the words Rat and Rad are pronounced identical, thanks to the Auslautverhärtung. Are they though? > Ich habe einen Rat für dich. > Ich habe ein Rad für dich.

And at least spoken, it can be difficult to understand, if someone said "einen" or "ein"; if they would care for the difference at all.

Yea if you are not making an effort to pronounce it formal you'd say

> Ich hab 'nen Rat für dich

> Ich hab 'n Rad für dich

where they sound the same.

Re: German for Programmers

#46

The super-complicated LIFO example is, unfortunately, a contrived example: “Ich stimme dem Maler, der die Meinung, dass Rot keine Farbe ist, vertritt, zu.” This sentence can be rewritten in German just as in the English translation: “Ich stimme dem Maler zu, der die Meinung vertritt, dass Rot keine Farbe ist.”

Besides, it should be "keine Farbe sei"

Re: German for Programmers

#47

> The genders of individual nouns and the grammatical rules to decline articles and adjectives using those genders constitute a shared set of rules that the sender and receiver both know. It may not approach the Shannon limit, but German gendered nouns form a weird, organically developed forward error correcting code. This might be a convoluted example, but imagine trying to hear the difference between Rat and Rad ov…

> Somehow, they tend to all place the noun in the same gender.

That's not generally true, especially for German. I've heard "der Blog, das Blog," "die, das Email" "die, der, das Factory" … etc.

Loan words undergo an integration process, which is more of a sociolinguistic concept, I guess. At the end of the integration process, the word becomes an integral part of the language, with a fixed gender. For example, "Manager" is integrated, and it's clear its' "der Manager," same for Computer.

Some words do seem to evoke a certain gender (I've never heard anything but "der Podcast") but you shouldn't assume your personal preference extends to all (native) speakers ("das Podcast" would easily be possible.)

But how do people assign gender during the integration process? It's a consensus process, but there are several factors: lexical similarity (Computer denotes the same concept as "der Rechner" so it becomes masculine. Same for City/Stadt (feminine)) or lexical analogies (this loan word denotes something we already have a category for) morphological analogies (words in -er are likely to become masculine, as many German masculine words already have that ending, same for nouns ending in a vowel and feminine.) Sometimes it's chaotic, but that's the nature of consensus.

This process is much easier in Slavic languages, where gender assignment follows stricter morphological rules. German, on the other hand is chaotic. Note: German is not chaotic for the reasons given in TFA, because formations with -chen -keit -heit -ung etc. have fixed, regular gender. But words which did not undergo a morphological derivation process, but are instead atomic nouns are very haphazard in their gender assignment.

Re: German for Programmers

#48

Tip for remembering if a noun is male, female or neuter, visualize it as burning/being burnt/blowing up for coding female and freezing for coding male. Of course you can reverse the system if you prefer. Also in my experience, reading text eventually is the most efficient way to learn a language, including the grammatical pecularities. If you come upon the phrase "das kalte Bier", you know that it is "das Bier". At t…

I took German back in high school but I don't really remember anything about it. How can you read if you don't at least have an idea of what each word or phrase means? I'm a native born English speaker, and I occasionally have to look up English words if I have no idea what they're supposed to mean. It's one thing if it's an obvious random word for a gadget such as doohickey. I can't imagine reading a foreign languag…

lingq is a great resource to consume lots of content in foreign languages at the right level.

Re: German for Programmers

#49
post #3

About the nonsensical assignment of gender to nouns I agree in principle but just a quick tip for the particular example in the footnote: “Mädchen” ends in -chen which is the diminutive form of a word (originally “die Magd” for a young woman). All words ending in -chen are neutral. Similarly, “das Bübchen” could refer to a young boy and is also neutral. Hope this helps and good luck with learning German. If it wasn’t…

It doesn't make sense, but it is a pattern. There is a similar pattern in French: all nouns ending in -tion or -sion are feminine (apart from a single exception: le bastion). Handily we also have most of those nouns in English too.

When learning French I stopped searching for patterns in genders. Some are truly weird, like penis being feminine and vagina being masculine. But I told myself it's no different to having to remember the pronunciation of every single English word, so my brain easily has capacity for it. After a while it becomes just as natural.

Re: German for Programmers

#50

Got excited when I read the title but. I speak fluent German - like a native. Only after 20 years in London I cannot participate in a hard- or software-related technical discussion in German, because I wasn't exposed to that milieu in a German-speaking environment. And so I excpected something that maybe explains how you might say "inversion of control" or "edge/perimiter network" or "public key cryptography" or "tie…

Just use the English words like everyone else.

It seems like there was an effort in the 80ies/90ies to have native German names for concepts in computer science, but today those just sound very dated.

Datenfernübertragung died with the 56k Modem ;)

Post reply on HN