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Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

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Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there not some part of you deep down that looks back at the last decade of technology and feels "well I'm glad we're not doing things that way anymore, it was totally wrong for our situation"? It just seems that that is constantly the case. We might well be another 3 or 4 decades away from software development technology hitting real maturity in terms of really streamlined tooling, frameworks, languages that help…

What actually ends up happening is people like you get left behind. Jobs become harder to get as you struggle to keep up, your ambition hardens into a self defensive ego shield, and you're stuck telling yourself that you were right to stop moving forward because things only got downhill from the moment you chose to stop learning. The rest of us reap the benefits of innovation, standing in the sun, while you rot in so…

I think you should question your own biases if you're this emotionally invested in a technology.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#222

Side questions if anybody answers this. How did you get your first job industry? I imagine corporation weren’t like there are now and thought of code as black magic.

Late ‘90s, and it was just as hard as today. Applied to dozens of companies as a Senior in undergrad. Similar 1 on 20 response rate as today. I remember the interview—typical “solve this trivial thing in a language of your choice.” Most college kids picked java. I picked x86 assembly and nailed it. In think that impressed someone.

That's awesome. Did you submit it in HEX? :)

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#223
Here's the thing, it's about your value proposition (what are you offering).

All things equal, how many days can you work without sleep? How much do you need to get paid to do the job?

Age is just a coincidental number that correlates (doesn't cause) to number being able to program for days on end without suffering increasing consequences, and getting a programming job for $15 / hr not being suitable to handle a mortgage, truck payment, kids braces, and the things that come with the higher age number.

So, if you are starting out at 40 and someone is competing for a beginner job at 18, they are going to be the obvious choice because 1) they are typically more of an open book, and 2) you can pay them $15 / hr to get the same work that you would need to charge $40/hr to do.

That being said. The other side of it is if you have been programming since you were 7 and are now 42 with 20 solid years of professional experience competing with Joe Youngster who wrote his first line of code last year and has been to a programming boot camp.

Part of the issues are that you still have the stigma of 1) not being able to sacrifice time/sleep for code, 2) are more expensive.

Both of which are accurate.

However, if you are competing for a job that an 18 year old qualifies for after 20 years of experience, something is amiss.

I've seen this MANY times and am guilty of it myself, where a person will spend years spinning their wheels and not actually increasing their skills. It happens to a lot of people. You could get the same year of experience 20 times over (there was a good article written about that, good read, don't have the link handy). So "20 years of experience" boils down to 1 year of experience that you have practiced 20 times over.

After 20 years, younger programmers should not be able to compete with you. Not because they can't write code as well as you. It has nothing to do with that.

But the experience should have taught you and made second-nature all the design patterns, all the best practices, all the security tricks, all the devops.

An 18 yo can code, but they can't build a palace out of code yet (and if they can, they are typically swept up quickly). It takes years to go from knowing how to lay a brick to how to design a brick building to never crumble even if someone is beating it with a fallen tree.

While age descrimination exists (the concept of a senior developer is iffy sometimes), and I experienced it for the first time last year when someone said "no thanks" and hung up when they asked how any years experience I have; it doesn't exist when you are actually shooting for jobs that require 20 legitimate years of experience.

Some programmers settle back knowing they could code the world, but don't actually do it. Or code something twice as fast. Or 5 times as solid. Or with 567% less bugs.

What makes the 20 year experience you better than the 19 year experience you?

If you cannot sell that one year of difference, then it's not age discrimination, it's skill discrimination.

And to answer your actual questions.... :-D

What is your stack: After 21 years, I've work in .Net/Java/Node.js/LAMP(erl&HP) stacks plus tinkered with others. Now I do application security.

How have you gotten around age discrimination: When I've been discriminated against, I feel like I dodged a bullet, because who would want to work with / for someone that judges the content of a book by the wear of the spine?

How do you suss out whether a company is right for you? I focus on team and personal questions when I interview a company. What's the team culture, do they support members teaching each other, do they foster speaking at conferences, etc. The more information flow between developers and the industry the better, generally. That indicates a supportive culture rather than a competitive culture. Ask to speak to people you will be working with. "Their references".

I ask personal questions of interviewers. What is their next skill they are going to work on? What was the last issue they tackled that really taught them something new? Do they seem themselves with this company in 10 years? What was the last conference they attended? Was that on their own time? When was the last time they had an opportunity to speak at a conference?

Don't worry about getting into personal questions relating to their job.

I've found that tells me more (not necessarily their answers, but also how they answer) about the culture than the standard shpiels.

It's ALL about culture. A crap boss and crap co-workers will never be made for with good pay or high-skills in the long run.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, any suggestion for a COBOL book ? jk what would you consider a solid, time-proof set of fundamentals ?

Don't joke, COBOL is insanely profitable and a stable career path. Every large institution has an old COBOL mainframe running some mission-critical software that they can't upgrade away from.

I've always thought that COBOL was insanely profitable too, however, I'm not seeing that in the Chicago area. I've seen hourly rates around $50 for COBOL/JCL positions, which is a lot less than other jobs.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#226

There is a technology called hair coloring, stack it with a hoodie and some well fitted slacks, roll up one of the ankle cuffs a bit. Talk like you've exited a startup and are just working for fun, or something to keep you interested, but not like you actually have to.

I'm asking this seriously: Is rolling up one cuff a trend now? I have not noticed this.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you were "age" discriminated here my friend I think I definitely was. The attitude of one guy changed when he was looking through my resume and realized how old I was. There's this condition and particular set of reactions that accompany people getting strangely willing to believe you did something bad, even when they have scant or incomplete evidence. I grew up someplace where we literally had to drive…

Why would you have that far of history on your resume? I only have 11 years worth of experience on my current resume and my year of graduating isn’t on there either. No one cares about my C programming experience on mainframes in the mid 90s nor my C++/MFC/COM programming up until 2008.

No one cares about my C programming experience on mainframes in the mid 90s nor my C++/MFC/COM programming up until 2008.

In my current job, I'm working with C++/MFC.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#228
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actually ends up happening is people like you get left behind. Jobs become harder to get as you struggle to keep up, your ambition hardens into a self defensive ego shield, and you're stuck telling yourself that you were right to stop moving forward because things only got downhill from the moment you chose to stop learning. The rest of us reap the benefits of innovation, standing in the sun, while you rot in so…

The big companies self-host for legal reasons. It is easier to put up a legal fight with self-hosting. With other hosting, your data can be silently grabbed. You won't even know your data has been compromised. It's also just cheaper and more reliable at that scale.

No they don't, every major cloud provider can meet any legal requirement you've got.

This comment was true 15 years ago. It's now so outdated that you're flagging yourself as one of those basement dwellers I wrote about above...

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#229
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actually ends up happening is people like you get left behind. Jobs become harder to get as you struggle to keep up, your ambition hardens into a self defensive ego shield, and you're stuck telling yourself that you were right to stop moving forward because things only got downhill from the moment you chose to stop learning. The rest of us reap the benefits of innovation, standing in the sun, while you rot in so…

I think you should question your own biases if you're this emotionally invested in a technology.

A technology? Sure. Technology in general? Not at all.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of listening to you and I (age 50) there are some young people who would rather claim that basic/low-level/first principles knowledge is irrelevant. Yes, that sounds like the normal "folly of inexperience" -- it comes from people who don't yet have enough experience to know that they don't know as much as they think. There's a reason that people (in any field) with less experience tend to be more certain of…

Instead of listening to you and I (age 50) there are some young people who would rather claim that basic/low-level/first principles knowledge is irrelevant. It is irrelevant to most jobs and no I am neither young nor inexperienced. I first started programming in the 80s in 6th grade doing a combination of 65C02 and x86 assembly language and I spent my first 12 years professionally bit twiddling in C - first on DEC VA…

It is irrelevant to most jobs and no I am neither young nor inexperienced.

Just as one example, the basic level of algorithms, where one could realize when they're creating a O(n^2) routine, is relevant to just about every shop I interacted with working for a language/VM vendor. I found it disturbing, the number of times I could play the hero just by knowing that much.

I've worked in shops using C, where I kept bumping into workers who hadn't the foggiest idea how a C compiler might work, and it not only showed in their code, it even showed in management decisions. (Long story short: The application literally had 100's of re-implementations of linked list.)

I've interviewed recent grads from top-tier schools with near 4.0 GPAs, who try and tell me things, like adding a pointer to a struct incurs zero memory use. Then I ask them how much memory a pointer would take up, and they can't give me any kind of answer. (Or ask me a relevant question for more info, so they can answer.)

All this stuff could be avoided if there was just a certain level of basic background knowledge. They're like car mechanics who don't know the first thing about electricity. There's a certain level of background that can keep you from inconveniencing and hurting yourself. You don't need it most of the time, but when you do, it can save you a lot.

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