Seven Fixes for American Capitalism • Hacker News Board

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#31

Post by davidivadavid » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #2

> “I don’t even think stasis is compatible with liberty,” he told the Washington audience. - Bezos Suppose one were to attempt to steelman Jeff’s statement. Is there any credible basis for this statement? Or is it just one of those things that powerful people say because it makes them sound profound and they don’t have to follow it up with substantive supporting evidence.

On the face of it the statement looks like one of those things that is either a tautology, or false.

If society is in a state of stasis, that means no one is allowed to do things that go beyond what society is doing in the present. That means you don't have the right to innovate, to try new things, and so on, which seems integral to individual liberty. So his statement is obviously true.

However, if you consider liberty as a social construct that means you're allowed to do things as defined by society, then whether that society is static or not is immaterial. So the statement isn't necessarily true.

And that's what you get when you make arguments about the definition of words.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#32

Post by chobeat » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

m000z0rz wrote: post #25

clavalle wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. We found a good move. But did we find the best move? Or, somewhat more weakly, can we find a better move? Don't let the good be the enemy of the better.

Isn't that exactly what joshuaheard said, though?

No because capitalism, even on paper, will still imply poverty as a structural element. Without poverty and exploitation, the system cannot sustain itself. This without considering waste: Capitalism, being competitive at every scale, implies that to give feedback to the system, you have to waste. Waste resources, waste time, waste lives. The more waste, the better the outcome.

If it works by different assumptions, it stops being capitalism. So if you aim to remove these elements, you're aiming at destroying capitalism.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#33

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

kadendogthing wrote: post #17

joshuaheard wrote: post #10

The title implies Capitalism is broken. It's not. Capitalism has provided more benefits to more people than any other economic system in history. American Capitalism has produced the telephone, the automobile, the personal computer, the cell phone, the internet, and made us one of the richest countries in the world. A better title would be, Tweaks that can make American Capitalism Better.

Why does capitalism get the credit for industrial and scientific breakthroughs? That's begging the question, no? There is absolutely zero proof that these things are inclusive of one another, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. Especially when the current capitalistic system is not reasonably sharing the benefits of these breakthroughs?

[deleted]

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#34

Post by chasd00 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #30

You can buy and sell almost anything under capitalism. You can buy or sell property. You can buy or sell pieces of a company (stocks). You can buy or sell human labor. And the way that businesses make money is by essentially arbitraging some market, for example by buying something in one place and selling it somewhere where it is more expensive, or by buying labor and selling the products of that labor at a profit. B…

To me the concept of labor in socialism is outdated. Consider Facebook, do all the uses who generate the content and activity that gives Facebook its value count towards "labor" and therefore should participate in the rewards of that labor?

If everything was still physical factories, staffed by humans, and creating physical widgets then I can at least understand the socialist view. However, in the current market labor so is detached from profit it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#35

Post by refurb » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #26

joshuaheard wrote: post #10

The title implies Capitalism is broken. It's not. Capitalism has provided more benefits to more people than any other economic system in history. American Capitalism has produced the telephone, the automobile, the personal computer, the cell phone, the internet, and made us one of the richest countries in the world. A better title would be, Tweaks that can make American Capitalism Better.

For a long time America has been by far the richest country in the world, without a credible second place (though maybe China is that now) And yet for decades the quality of life of hundreds of millions of Americans is lower than that of people in other, poorer developed countries. Why is that? What's the point in having the richest country if it doesn't have the best conditions for those living in it? Is it worthwhi…

Depending on how you measure how "rich" a country is, the US often isn't #1 and there are plenty that are a close #2 (Japan, Western Europe).

And yes, the quality of life for many Americans is lower than developing countries, but that's because the developing countries have become richer.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#36

Post by tribune » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

The chart showing USG spending / GDP excludes transfer payments, which strikes me as misleading. Transfer payments have ballooned in the time period shown and are still transfers of cash out of the government's coffers. I'm not some sky-is-falling Federal debt doomsayer; borrowing has been cheap and we're not breaking a sweat to service the debt. Still, it's hardly controversial that the current trajectory is unsustainable in the not-so-long term of a few decades.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#37

Post by kadendogthing » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #24

kadendogthing wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does capitalism get the credit for industrial and scientific breakthroughs? That's begging the question, no? There is absolutely zero proof that these things are inclusive of one another, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. Especially when the current capitalistic system is not reasonably sharing the benefits of these breakthroughs?

What is reasonable? And more to the point, what non-capitalist system has ever been more reasonable?

>What is reasonable?

I think not having a continual decline in purchasing power and living standards despite increases in productivity and consistent technological breakthroughs is pretty reasonable.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#38

Post by d_burfoot » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

A lot of analyses of capitalism miss out on the fact that the problems it creates vary widely by sector. Warren Buffet said that if "a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk, he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down." That's because the airline industry didn't return profits to investors; instead the vast value created by the industry accrued overwhelmingly to the public, because of competition.

So a good general strategy would be for the government to make sure that, at least in the long run, the rules for each sector are tweaked to make the sector look more and more like the airline industry.

It's not hard to imagine a way for this to happen in the tech industry. We can imagine a technology sector that runs completely on commodity hardware, open-source software, and open APIs instead of walled gardens like FaceBook. This would just take a bit of political will and some smart regulations - no need to radically overthrow the system that has created so much prosperity for us.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#39

Post by chasd00 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #16

joshuaheard wrote: post #10

The title implies Capitalism is broken. It's not. Capitalism has provided more benefits to more people than any other economic system in history. American Capitalism has produced the telephone, the automobile, the personal computer, the cell phone, the internet, and made us one of the richest countries in the world. A better title would be, Tweaks that can make American Capitalism Better.

How many people need to be working for sub-poverty wages before we can say American capitalism isn't perfect? How many inches do the oceans need to rise? How many people need to file bankruptcy due to medical bills? No wonder we can't fix our problems if people insist on pretending their aren't any.

I don't believe anyone has claimed American capitalism is perfect only that it's better than the known alternatives.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#40

Post by onemoresoop » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

om33 wrote: post #9

It's not an issue of having good ideas. The issue is really about execution and consensus building. We need to stop propping up 'the choosen one' type leaders and we will see change. I want boring people elected ala Merkel. Starting all the way back from Clinton\Bush\Obama\Trump to AOC these leaders are the wrong fit to make change happen in polarized times. They are great for media rating but not much else. I want t…

The problem is that a boring non charismatic people fail to get elected. Do you think that the past presidents the USA had were the best fit for their jobs? Some did well but we can never know what the alternatives would have done.