It clearly shows how the tax system based on taking a cut from profits is totally leaky and should be abandoned. It only results in endless cat and mouse game of tax consultants (the big 4) finding loopholes in such tax systems against governments trying to plug the holes, just with much smaller budget and efficiency than the tax-evasion consulting armies. There are other models of tax systems. Some are even not prod…
This is a production tax: " For example land taxation proposed by single-tax movement " Land is an input to production, so this would be a production tax.
Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
71–80 of 91 posts
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless actual numbers are cited, discounting government's VAT income from Google's operations is not useful. We need a number to understand whether or not Google's contribution to the coffers are actually lesser than the fines it pays.
Unless actual numbers are cited, it is not useful to credit Google with paying taxes which (i) are actually paid by Google's customers if at all and (ii) are generally directly deducted from those customers' own tax obligations and thus generally net to zero.
On (ii), ANY and all costs incurred in operating a company, including paying VAT, can be deducted from revenues while calculating profit. That in NO WAY takes away from the actual VAT being paid to the government!!! HOW exactly does that "generally net to zero."? It certainly reduces profits, but unlike other "costs" that reduce profit calculation, VAT cannot be viewed as tax avoidance, if anything, the resultant profits post VAT are still subject to corp income tax, constituting double taxation. No CPA will advise a company to pay more VAT as a tax avoidance strategy, so I'm still trying to understand why booking VAT payments under "costs" net to 0, and for whom?
The entire premise of VAT is to guarantee a certain income for the government, as a % on EVERY transaction that happens in the economy. Hence, the mere existence and operations of Google in the EU resulting in transactions, is a source of VAT income for the government. Google can always move ALL incorporation out of the EU, and buyers can make "American" transactions to an American company that completely circumvent EU VAT. By choosing to have an EU entity subject to EU VAT, Google is contributing to EU coffers.
Unless there is an agenda to malign Google, ignoring government income from Google's operations seem convenient, and click-bait-ey.
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#73It clearly shows how the tax system based on taking a cut from profits is totally leaky and should be abandoned. It only results in endless cat and mouse game of tax consultants (the big 4) finding loopholes in such tax systems against governments trying to plug the holes, just with much smaller budget and efficiency than the tax-evasion consulting armies. There are other models of tax systems. Some are even not prod…
You start out strongly, but then this: > Somebody appropriates for himself a valuable piece of land with oil deposits. He prevents others from utilizing that land. Let him pay for having that exclusive rights of use, since clearly the government is providing private property related services (police, courts and army to guarantee his property) for him that others (non-owners) are not getting. If by "appropriates for h…
'Buying' land, ie. transfer of rights from previous owner to new owner is a transaction which excludes the actual provider of the service of land rights, which is other people who will respect the new 'ownership'.
Current system is equivalent to giving infinite land leases, or very long like 100 years.
The way to fix this is to either have a yearly 'land tax' system to collect percentage of the land value or simply provide the land leases for like 7 years for commercial and/or longer for residential.
Each 7 years you'd have a land lease auction. Similarly to having a electromagnetic spectrum auctions or how DNS should be organized - periodic auction to prevent domain squatters to hold premium domain name 'real estate' near valuable domains (using levenshtein distance).
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Land is extremely limited in supply. If there is one thing that should not be openly bought and sold in markets (apart from humans) it is land.
How do you recommend allocating it, then? Difficulty: without murdering millions of people to make it happen.
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless actual numbers are cited, it is not useful to credit Google with paying taxes which (i) are actually paid by Google's customers if at all and (ii) are generally directly deducted from those customers' own tax obligations and thus generally net to zero.
What in my statement implies Google directly pays VAT taxes. I make it amply clear that "discounting government's VAT income from Google's operations", i.e. owing to the actual operations that result in transactions with Google, under EU law, subject to EU VAT, regardless of who pays it! On (ii), ANY and all costs incurred in operating a company, including paying VAT, can be deducted from revenues while calculating p…
It's a bit rich to accuse others of having an agenda to malign an organization when you started off with claims about what the EU wanted based entirely on your own ignorance of how VAT on business expenses actually works. (It's actually a rare example of a tax designed to avoid "double taxation")
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
What in my statement implies Google directly pays VAT taxes. I make it amply clear that "discounting government's VAT income from Google's operations", i.e. owing to the actual operations that result in transactions with Google, under EU law, subject to EU VAT, regardless of who pays it! On (ii), ANY and all costs incurred in operating a company, including paying VAT, can be deducted from revenues while calculating p…
Your claim that it is "completely disingenuous" and click-bait-ey to note Google avoids so much corporation tax on its European operations it actually pays more in fines rests on a completely disingenuous claim that VAT on Adwords should be counted as "dollar amounts Google has raised for the EU", despite them generally resulting in zero net change to company tax bills as they're fully tax-deductible for VAT-register…
Google recorder $40B in EU revenues in 2017. About 20%, or $8B was the VAT related revenues that EU received. Let's move all that away from the EU, since it's all one big non-tax.
Also, let's abolish VAT, as my "ignorance of how VAT on business expenses actually works" is being exploited by big-evil Google for tax avoidance. Everyone knows that paying VAT is the #1 way to reduce tax liabilities, translated, "let's all pay taxes on transactions, as a way to avoid taxes on income! Hurrahs all around for the genius CPAs".
VAT is an evil tax on revenues (transactions), that sellers conveniently pass on to the buyer. Whether you agree or not, every seller is also a buyer, and VAT merely increases the cost of doing business, while also effectively acting as a double-taxation ploy, as profits are subject to income taxes. Who ends up footing the VAT bill is immaterial, as VAT goes under "costs" that were previously $0, unless you're a company that buys nothing to sell something. And whether it's booked as "costs" or not, it's a tax that the government receives on transactions under it's jurisdiction. Buying ads from a US company as a US transaction doesn't incur a VAT cost on an EU company, hence, Google's EU presence is a net positive for EU coffers!
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. Fines exist to dissuade illegal behavior. The loopholes that Google (and Apple, and many other multinationals) should be abolished, and any tax evasion should be prosecuted. Antitrust fines do not exist to punish tax avoidance. They exist to penalize companies who use their size to prevent competition and distort markets. I have many issues with Google's business practices, but punishing them is not worth throwin…
> Fines exist to dissuade illegal behavior This is just your preferred interpretation. Fines also exist to reduce or disincentivize unwanted behavior.
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your claim that it is "completely disingenuous" and click-bait-ey to note Google avoids so much corporation tax on its European operations it actually pays more in fines rests on a completely disingenuous claim that VAT on Adwords should be counted as "dollar amounts Google has raised for the EU", despite them generally resulting in zero net change to company tax bills as they're fully tax-deductible for VAT-register…
Ah! If VAT is not a tax, and Google's operations inside the EU doesn't contribute to EU coffers, you must be all for moving Google's EU subsidiaries offshore, and saving whatever VAT Google's customers pay? Google recorder $40B in EU revenues in 2017. About 20%, or $8B was the VAT related revenues that EU received. Let's move all that away from the EU, since it's all one big non-tax. Also, let's abolish VAT, as my "i…
Please do yourself a favour and educate yourself on what VAT is before you Dunning-Krugersplain what the EU wants from it, how much you think it is worth to the economy and what you think an accountant would recommend a business does (I can recommend a good search engine as a starting point!). The entire point of VAT that it's a tax on the consumer of the final product only, and that businesses get to deduct all the VAT levied on intermediate goods they've purchased to make and market the final product. That's literally the most basic, definitional aspect of VAT that sets it apart from traditional sales taxes. Since Google Ads are bought almost exclusively by businesses, EU member states (the EU doesn't actually levy VAT itself) receive a net tax benefit from VAT paid on Google Ads only on ads bought for personal enjoyment or by VAT exempt organizations, which must be a tiny proportion of their sales. Now there's an argument that Google's customers' customers would buy fewer taxed goods and services if they didn't see the ads, but that's a very different argument and certainly not something you could object to journalists not counting as "government income from Google's operations"
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#79I really wonder what will happen if Google/Facebook becomes unprofitable in EU due to regulations? It's clear that these companies work on user data and will not gain enough data/users/money if it is paid, specially social networking sites. Will they block it like China for exactly the opposite reason?
Even running at a loss may be worth them continuing to run in the EU to stop the rise of competitors and to keep the better service that having more users grants them.
Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you recommend allocating it, then? Difficulty: without murdering millions of people to make it happen.
Same as the society solved allocating humans. Instead of them being bought and sold on slave markets, nowadays we have companies leasing humans in exchange for a salary. You can do the same with land - lease it instead of giving asay infinite time ownership rights.