Live data from Hacker News

Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

npr.org

51–60 of 305 posts

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#51

Isn't the problem less about predatory payday loans and more an existential issue around the fact that so many people can't afford to simply live ? People take these bad loans because they literally have no other choice. They are using these loans to buy groceries and cover bills, not splurge on non-essentials.

I saw a tweet [1] that followed a thread on the concept that paydays are not really a requirement any more -- it is totally possible with our existing banking infrastructure to pay salaries on a more continuous basis, but we've built up a huge amount of institutional momentum around the idea that running payroll is a complex and laborious process that we want to infrequently. By parallel in software engineering, bran…

It happens, it's just not popular. If you're a Caviar courier, you can get paid after each delivery.

https://courierhelp.trycaviar.com/customer/en/portal/article...

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#52
post #18

This decision really comes down to are people better off if:(1) they have access to loans even if they are high fee or (2) they are better off if they can’t get the loans at all?

Why are those the only two options? Is there a shortage of wealth in the USA?

How exactly does that work? Person A had an unexpected expense and needs a little help, so we just take it out of the pocket of Person B, who happens to be the nearest wealthy person?

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#53

Isn't the problem less about predatory payday loans and more an existential issue around the fact that so many people can't afford to simply live ? People take these bad loans because they literally have no other choice. They are using these loans to buy groceries and cover bills, not splurge on non-essentials.

How many struggling people are spending $200+ monthly for overpriced cell and cable service?

That's an unnecessarily inflammatory way to put it, but yes, there are smarter ways to do this kind of regulation, that involve more "informing the consumer" and less "bad, symptom-of-problem! Go away and the problem is solved!"

In CA several years ago, I checked out a payday loan place for a cash advance, and what surprised me was that, apparently, they suggest a bunch of (cheaper, non-profit) alternatives to using them, and only then approve the loan. I don't know if that's a law that they have to, but that seems like a better way to go about this.

Similarly, like you say, maybe the core problem is bad spending patterns. Posters like to copypasta the Vimes bit about "the poor are poor because they don't have the upfront money to pay 2x for something that will last 10x". Well, if true, maybe mandate that kind of counseling at payday lenders.

Those seem like better ways to address the core problem than banning the practice.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#54

I'm of the mind that many of these lenders are indeed predatory, but prohibiting loans to high-risk borrowers at realistic rates (based on the risk) just leaves them unbanked rather than poorly-banked.

If you read the article, there's a little more nuänce than that. One thing listed right up front is a limit on how many times a lender can try to withdraw funds from your account. If they have, say, a $200 NSF charge, and your payment bounces, they can try every business day, racking up $1,000 a week in NSF fees. Companies that do this kind of thing aren't trying to collect their original payments in good faith, they…

Nonetheless, payday lenders are not exactly making money hand over fist. Predatory practices to recover as much money as possible are, in aggregate, a reflection on the risk profile (i.e. staggering default rate) of these borrowers. Prohibiting these practices with no replacement measures just raises the rate or reduces loan availability.

Realistically, people who can't get even a (legal) payday loan often turn to places where someone breaks your legs when you don't repay.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#55

So regarding the idea of charging high rates to compensate for the extra risk Looking at the St Louis Fed (I assume a good source of data) [ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/categories/32440 ] credit card defaults average around 5% and mortgage defaults at 2.5% (handwaving 2008 recession) So ... even with my bad maths ... if I am going to get 95% of all my loans back, I need to charge the 95% and extra 5.25% to break even…

I'm not defending this industry, but I don't think you have all of the facts. These businesses serve people who can't get traditional credit cards and loans. They have massively higher default rates - more like 20%.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#57
post #7

Here is the best argument in favor of the change: >> if the rule had kicked in, some two-thirds of borrowers wouldn't qualify for a payday loan If the above is true (and not fake news), I would like to understand how the industry was expected to survive with 2/3rd of its customer base taken away in an instant; and what alternative services these customers would have been routed to...

> I would like to understand how the industry was expected to survive

Why should it survive. It's usury, plain and simple.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#58
post #31

Anytime I see people defend this kind of practice, the John Ruskin quote comes to mind: “The dullest of all excuses for usury is that some kind of good is done by the usurer.”

I've had to take out loans for my business that were at usury rate.

It saved me.

If it wasn't there, if it was regulated out of existence; I'd have gone to a shark. I was not going to let cash flow cause me failing.

Having said that, I'm very happy there was a lender of last resort that won't break my legs. Despite them screwing me in fees.

Honestly, I've never understood people who suffer from legislitis:

They see a population suffering so bad they get desperate and do something bad to get relief from their suffering.

The population that isn't suffering then decides that it's too horrible to watch the population that suffers do desperate bad things to get relief.

So then they decide to: Ban the bad thing people do for relief when they are desperate. All while not ameliorating the suffering that cause the desperate bad relief efforts.

Whether it's drugs, bad lending, prostitution, whatever. If someone is desperate enough to want to get into that, why make it harder? History has shown these consenting adults are going to do it in their private property (despite the horror of those who are well off enough to not feel desperate enough to engage in such situations)

I mean, no where do they seem to be hinting at creating a government agency for lending of last resort. We already basically create money out of thin air. We COULD be lending it out at whatever usury rates, but by the government, and given equally to the whole population maybe? This could create a floor and a large enough competitor to drive the worst offenders out of business. I don't know. Just seems like there could be things done to help people. But the efforts seem focused on restricting people.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#59
The rules were misconceived to begin with, by people who mistook the symptoms for the problem. There is a ton of competition in payday lending—there is zero reason to believe that payday lending rates are higher than the efficient amount. There is no hint of market failure, systemic risk, or any of the other criteria that typically justify regulating financial institutions.

That means this rule wasn’t really a consumer protection regulation but rather a moral regulation. It’s not in the vein of Dodd-Frank, but rather blue laws and the prohibition on buying cooked food with food stamps. People don’t like the moral implications of what it means to be poor, so they try to legislate the symptoms. The result is denying poor people access to credit.

EDIT: I see people hand waving about fraud and hidden fees and lack of transparency. But if you look at the rules, they don’t address such things: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-final.... They are restrictions on who can borrow and how much.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#60
post #31

Anytime I see people defend this kind of practice, the John Ruskin quote comes to mind: “The dullest of all excuses for usury is that some kind of good is done by the usurer.”

Not clear to me what that quote is saying. Doesn't that just encompass any possible excuse?
Post reply on HN