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There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

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Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#121

Post by cphoover »

cphoover wrote: post #26
jondubois wrote: post #21

If you're a technical person, you don't need to trust Blockchain technology; you can verify that it works on your own. If you're not a technical person, you can find independent technical experts to verify it for you. Much of the value of a cryptocurrency can be attributed to the fact that it's difficult to coordinate a large number of people to agree on changes. Also, because most blockchains are public ledgers; it'…

"If you're a technical person, you don't need to trust Blockchain technology; you can verify that it works on your own. If you're not a technical person, you can find independent technical experts to verify it for you." That holds for Proof-of-work based currencies... It seems like it's trickier than that for proof-of-stake, as these have to be trustful systems.

I'm not sure why having trusted actors is necessarily a bad thing. DNS Authorities, and Certificate authorities are both examples of decentralized systems with trusted entities.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#122

Post by AlexCoventry »

neals wrote: post #16

I've stopped loving, hating, trusting or distrusting it: My client wants to auction thousands of cars with 7 competitors. He wants parts of it on blockchain. If that's the way he can create trust within this group of competitors, so be it. Is it marketing? Maybe. But we've built it and it actually works.

Got a link? Sounds interesting.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#123

Post by verdverm »

dkonofalski wrote: post #109
verdverm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sort of my point. I actually don't care about the technology underneath. I care about the monetary system and its adherence (and recourse) to the rules of law that humans have generally agreed upon. Like, if you steal, the societal system will correct the wrong as much as they can. It's an open question as to whether public blockchains can provide for this trust and requirement.

I think that blockchains can provide more trust than the current system because the ledger is publicly visible. The societal system still kicks in to remediate the effects of a mistake but the blockchain is an additional tool used to provide the evidence and support for such a reversal. For me, personally, I think the best solution is a form of blockchain run by a state/federal agency. You're putting trust in an inst…

I don't really want all of my personal actions on a publicly visible system. Consider Facebook's internal data or the Chinese Social Credit system available to the public.

I do like the idea of an internet where every action is traceable to a human, via public keys or sovereign identity.

How you'd retain and verify is an unknown for me.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#124

Post by bduerst »

optimuspaul wrote: post #73
baxtr wrote: post #8

I hate blockchain so much and I can’t even exactly say why. Not because of the technology itself. I care about it as much as any other technology. I think it’s because of the sleazy non-tech people that suddenly turned into “experts” raising money for their BC startup, people organizing meetups, becoming “consultants” and of course the whole crypto craze... I really wish it will die soon.

I also hate blockchain but I can say exactly why. Someone came up with a hard problem and created an overly complex and inefficient solution to it. So I have two issues with it. 1) I don't buy that the original problem it sought to solve, which I believe is currency related, but let's say it's trust in a distributed system where trust does not exist. I don't believe that is an actual problem that should be solved wit…

If you strip away the application as a cryptocurrency, blockchain is just another hammer looking for a nail. Heck, even as a currency you're right in that it's an overly-complex hammer for a nail that already has a dozen hammers.

I agree though that further discussion would be necessary to find that nail for blockchain, but the elephant in the room (Bitcoin) has people who are personally and financially invested, leading to incessant noise being constantly generated around anything related to blockchain.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#125

Post by as300 »

optimuspaul wrote: post #73
baxtr wrote: post #8

I hate blockchain so much and I can’t even exactly say why. Not because of the technology itself. I care about it as much as any other technology. I think it’s because of the sleazy non-tech people that suddenly turned into “experts” raising money for their BC startup, people organizing meetups, becoming “consultants” and of course the whole crypto craze... I really wish it will die soon.

I also hate blockchain but I can say exactly why. Someone came up with a hard problem and created an overly complex and inefficient solution to it. So I have two issues with it. 1) I don't buy that the original problem it sought to solve, which I believe is currency related, but let's say it's trust in a distributed system where trust does not exist. I don't believe that is an actual problem that should be solved wit…

> I think that much simpler solutions would be sufficient and should be purpose built. I also wish it would die soon.

100% agree. If you look at all of the current blockchain "use-cases" you will find that many of them (e.g. Ripple and Corda) are simply centralized/semi-centralized solutions that have been around for years (in the distributed-systems literature) masquerading a blockchain solutions.

In a sense the blockchain craze is good as it's getting institutions such as banks to modernize their systems and make it so that a regional bank doesn't need to wait 5-7 days to transfer money, but examples like this are few and far between and for the most part people are using the idea to drain money from undereducated/uncritical people.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#126

Post by as300 »

> These four elements work together to enable trust. Take banking, for example. Financial institutions, merchants, and individuals are all concerned with their reputations, which prevents theft and fraud. The laws and regulations surrounding every aspect of banking keep everyone in line, including backstops that limit risks in the case of fraud. And there are lots of security systems in place, from anti-counterfeiting technologies to internet-security technologies.

The problem isn't that banks and the government don't trust each other, it's that the people don't trust the banks and governments (see: crisis with the Bank of Cyprus).

If there's one thing I trust, it's that a bitcoin that I 'own' will stay mine (barring oversight on my own part). I have less trust that money in the bank will stay my own.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#127

Post by notahacker »

jondubois wrote: post #120
yongjik wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a currency isn't working for you; you should be able to choose a different one which does. Imagine an employer saying "This week I'm paying you by dollars, but I don't like being forced to deal with dollars, so if I decide dollars aren't working for us we'll switch to Euros next month. And then maybe Pound the month after that." I'm not sure how this is going to benefit cryptocurrency users.

If conversion is easy and fast, then I wouldn't care what my employer pays me with. The onus is on me to figure out which currency is used by the smartest and most productive people on the planet because that's the one I want to hold onto in the long term.

It's not exactly the world's biggest secret that the smartest and most productive people on the planet do their business in USD or other local currencies...

And the average person is even more keen on being paid in something they can reliably exchange goods for or invest in productive businesses whose value rises when they make more profit rather than the money-printing scheme du jour whose future value rises are contingent on hype and exchange manipulation.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#129

Post by darawk »

afgkonionio wrote: post #93
darawk wrote: post #83

> What blockchain does is shift some of the trust in people and institutions to trust in technology. You need to trust the cryptography, the protocols, the software, the computers and the network. And you need to trust them absolutely, because they’re often single points of failure. This is wrong. You do not need to trust them, because you can verify their correctness yourself. You cannot similarly inspect the rectit…

>You do not need to trust them, because you can verify their correctness yourself. I certainly cannot verify their correctness myself, and I'm a professional programmer! I don't touch cryptography with a thirteen-and-a-half foot pole. Most people wouldn't even know where to start. Only a tiny minority has the skills to singlehandedly verify the economic theory, cryptography, and implementation of a cryptocurrency. Pr…

Sure, but nobody uses that argument to say that you can't trust AES, RSA or SSL, despite the fact that it applies equally well to them.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#130

Post by theseatoms »

XMPPwocky wrote: post #41
jondubois wrote: post #21

If you're a technical person, you don't need to trust Blockchain technology; you can verify that it works on your own. If you're not a technical person, you can find independent technical experts to verify it for you. Much of the value of a cryptocurrency can be attributed to the fact that it's difficult to coordinate a large number of people to agree on changes. Also, because most blockchains are public ledgers; it'…

> When anyone will be able to launch their own cryptocurrency, we will have a chance to free ourselves from the coercive influences of debt, venture capital and corporations. You can borrow cryptocurrency. You can invest cryptocurrency with terms that are bad for the business you invest in. Corporations can use cryptocurrency. What, exactly, have you changed?

The monetary supply schedule is deterministic, for one.
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