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There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

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Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#111

Post by jayd16 »

blotter_paper wrote: post #71
jayd16 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're saying the same thing. Satoshi is a defacto central bank. The main difference is the money is already printed but that fact is essentially irrelevant.

I don't see how that fact is irrelevant. In one case, an upper limit of how much currency can enter the marketplace is known. In the other, it can keep being printed indefinitely. That doesn't seem like a trivial difference. This is basic inflation/deflation we're talking about, and while deflation isn't popular among modern economists it certainly isn't seen as irrelevant. Satoshi has no magical powers, only a stash…

I simply mean a large amount approaches infinity. In Satoshi's case he owns 5% of all bitcoin that will ever be and almost certainly much more in terms of what is in circulation. This amount of power is akin to that of a central bank for the purposes of this discussion.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#112

Post by yongjik »

jondubois wrote: post #58
jayd16 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, fiat money is constantly being secretly manipulated. Crypto can be secretly manipulated in the exact same way fiat can. The only thing different about crypto is that there's no central bank that can literally print money. Instead we get defacto authority with no legal framework in place.

But a key difference is that nobody is forced to use a specific cryptocurrency and it's much easier to see if your cryptocurrency is being manipulated. If a currency isn't working for you; you should be able to choose a different one which does. As an investor, it would make things more interesting because you will no longer be able to just sit around and wait for the capital to come to you through the same reliable…

> If a currency isn't working for you; you should be able to choose a different one which does.

Imagine an employer saying "This week I'm paying you by dollars, but I don't like being forced to deal with dollars, so if I decide dollars aren't working for us we'll switch to Euros next month. And then maybe Pound the month after that."

I'm not sure how this is going to benefit cryptocurrency users.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#113

Post by verdverm »

mantenpanther wrote: post #86
verdverm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't h#$@ it, just dislike. I'm currently in a bet with a friend. - If you use a curse word, $1 to the other - If you can convince someone the h#$@ should be one of the banned four letter words, $10 recoup ---------- h#$@ should be a banned for letter word! Do you agree?

Good spot here, h#$@ is a 4 letter word, starts with 'h' and you used it in a discussion in the context of the term 'hate'. Not sure if this setup was to easy, or you taking your bet too serious scanning the interwebs for such opportunities :-)

I wasn't looking for it, but we did talk about how the internet would be a great place to spread the idea.

We don't go around preaching, rather bring it up when someone uses the "H-word." It's far more interesting IRL because it almost always sparks an inspiring conversation.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#114

Post by dkonofalski »

fdggdfsvscvsd wrote: post #106
dkonofalski wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the central problem with something like Bitcoin and currencies that can be (read: have to be) mined, though? You gain units of the currency for underpinning the integrity of the system. The average person will never be able to build up a mining system to compete with the likes of China and India where they're mining Bitcoin in farms that potentially devalue the currency every single second. Edit: For clari…

What do you mean by "farms that potentially devalue the currency every single second"?

Any currency is only as valuable as the goods or services that they can be exchanged for. The value of money comes from its inherent scarcity as, in the case of fiat currency, only a government or federal agency can issue more of it. With Bitcoin, farms are generating more of the currency all the time. If I generate a ton of Bitcoin but never spend it or use it in exchange for goods and services, I'm simply devaluing the currency that's already out there by making it less rare and, by extension, less valuable.

This may be a misplaced example but I think Star Trek is a decent analogy. Money becomes worthless once replicators are invented in that universe because you can just make more of whatever you need. If China can just mine more Bitcoin than the average citizen of any other country, then China starts to determine what the value of that currency is. It's one of the main reasons why I don't think Bitcoin will ever replace fiat currency. It's already being exploited.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#115

Post by verdverm »

theseatoms wrote: post #102
verdverm wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I h#$@ it and I didn't miss out. A month's salary turned into 16 months of freedom and a bit of money to start a non-crypto company. Reason being the ignorant hype, even greater inequality, and the support of criminals, terrorists, and bad actors built into the very nature of public blockchain. Private blockchain is a different story, but I see that more like a choice between SQL and NoSQL. Just need to wait a decade…

As you've identified, a "private blockchain" is just a database. People can't wake up to this soon enough.

Yes and no. Consider HyperLedger.

While it does have a shared, immutable ledger and chaincode, what is really interesting is the coordination and integration of business entities and processes. This is something a database does not facilitate like a blockchain.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#116

Post by astrodust »

fdggdfsvscvsd wrote: post #89
astrodust wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I lose all my Bitcoin because it turns out that Bitcoin was a total scam, at least I can switch my now worthless assets to...wait a second." Fiat money rarely becomes utterly worthless. Even Zimbabwe currency, unbelievably inflated, is still worth a marginal amount as a collectible. Blockchain currencies have gone from something to nothing in seconds.

The value of Bitcoin is not something Bitcoin makes any promises about. The technology is obviously not a scam. At most it could turn out that it has technical flaws, like the crypto algorithms could be broken or whatever. People selling you Bitcoin or making you promises about Bitoin might well be scammers. But that's not the same thing. Worthless fiat money: it seems to happen a lot, actually. I have a couple of Bi…

When the Bitcoin network goes offline then every BTC in existence will be worth exactly $0.0000.

When Zimbabwe blew up their money the bills themselves still had marginal utility as wallpaper or as collectibles. Collectively these bills are probably worth millions because there were so many of them.

If you have any Reichmarks around they're actually worth a fair bit considering they're not legal tender. Bills on eBay go for $5 or more depending on their condition, coins for far more. This is almost a hundred years after the implosion of the currency.

Zimbabwe and the Reichmark are extremely rare events. There are hundreds of countries in the world and every decade one or two might suffer from out of control inflation.

Bitcoin may well be a scam. We can't prove it isn't because the creator(s) remain unknown and their intent is based entirely on speculation.

I assure you that Bitcoin physical memorabilia will be worth infinitely more than Bitcoin itself within twenty years. A single shirt or mouse pad will be worth more than the entire market cap of Bitcoin.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#117

Post by bduerst »

joe_the_user wrote: post #54
dragontamer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only thing different about crypto is that there's no central bank that can literally print money Satoshi's pile of ~1 Million bitcoins disagrees with you. The entire BTC economy innately trusts Satoshi to not ruin the fun for them. If Satoshi decides to liquidate his holdings of BTC, it would crash the market harder than the next 10-years worth of mining. Satoshi's pile of 1-million bitcoins acts as a centraliz…

Satoshi's pile of 1-million bitcoins acts as a centralized bank, whether he likes it or not. Satoshi realizes this fact, and that's why Satoshi has ensured that his BTC has never moved. Speculation on cause is kind of stretching it. Satosh's identity is still unknown. Maybe that bitcoin is lost entirely, maybe "Satoshi" is going to liquidate as soon as he/she gets out of prison or maybe something else.

Also comes with the massive assumption that Satoshi still has control over the wallet, and hasn't, you know, lost the keys or anything:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-crypto-currencies-quadrig...

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#118

Post by bduerst »

blotter_paper wrote: post #71
jayd16 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're saying the same thing. Satoshi is a defacto central bank. The main difference is the money is already printed but that fact is essentially irrelevant.

I don't see how that fact is irrelevant. In one case, an upper limit of how much currency can enter the marketplace is known. In the other, it can keep being printed indefinitely. That doesn't seem like a trivial difference. This is basic inflation/deflation we're talking about, and while deflation isn't popular among modern economists it certainly isn't seen as irrelevant. Satoshi has no magical powers, only a stash…

For all intents and purposes it's the same central authority powers. You can split hairs over hypothetical scenarios where Satoshi doesn't have as large a share in some future, but the fact is that now they have the same control as a central bank does over putting currency into circulation.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#119

Post by astrodust »

fdggdfsvscvsd wrote: post #79
astrodust wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Questions like this. Don't sea lion. http://wondermark.com/1k62/

That seems rather silly. I am not going to hound you about your dislike of Bitcoin people. You are ENTITLED to dislike them. I just note that you have no idea what you are talking about and therefore discount your opinion accordingly.

The people who are the most enthusiastic about cryptocurrency are typically the least informed.

"You know nothing, your opinion is invalid" is a classic "crypto" talking point.

"You don't understand Bitcoin," they shriek while failing to comprehend the precarious position their beloved asset is in. "Bitcoin can't have bubbles, it's mathematically impossible," yell their cheerleaders.

Re: There's No Good Reason to Trust Blockchain Technology

#120

Post by jondubois »

yongjik wrote: post #112
jondubois wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a key difference is that nobody is forced to use a specific cryptocurrency and it's much easier to see if your cryptocurrency is being manipulated. If a currency isn't working for you; you should be able to choose a different one which does. As an investor, it would make things more interesting because you will no longer be able to just sit around and wait for the capital to come to you through the same reliable…

> If a currency isn't working for you; you should be able to choose a different one which does. Imagine an employer saying "This week I'm paying you by dollars, but I don't like being forced to deal with dollars, so if I decide dollars aren't working for us we'll switch to Euros next month. And then maybe Pound the month after that." I'm not sure how this is going to benefit cryptocurrency users.

If conversion is easy and fast, then I wouldn't care what my employer pays me with. The onus is on me to figure out which currency is used by the smartest and most productive people on the planet because that's the one I want to hold onto in the long term.
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