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Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

nytimes.com

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Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#131

Post by james_s_tayler »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

Probably because people did voice those concerns and it wasn't politically the right thing to do in the org at the time, they were labelled "not a team player" and shown the door.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#132

Post by dawhizkid »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

I don't know if "apathy" is the right term. It's more a lack of a moral compass (not uncommon in most profit-seeking business) and a tendency to see people as numbers and data points.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#133

Post by Apocryphon »

Fede_V wrote: post #84
ChuckMcM wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would believe that someone did/has. If you look at things like Project Maven at Google people did speak out, or the Chinese search engine. Speaking out doesn't help if you're not in a position to modify the plan though. I've been in both places, both where I could keep a bad idea from going through and times when I could only share my concerns. For me, it was situations like this that gave me the motivation to get…

I totally agree with this, and I think this makes the point that social outrage can sometimes play a positive role. In an ideal world, we could get people to act ethically because it's the right thing to do: if we can't do that, at least we can appeal to their self interest and point out how horribly this could backfire if people found out.

This is also literally the claim that libertarians use to justify deregulation. "We don't need laws, if a company does bad things consumer would just naturally avoid them!"

One would hope laissez-faire proponents are siding with the angry workers and disgusted customers in this case.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#134

Post by docker_up »

dhimes wrote: post #83
Cyclone_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can give cash tips instead.

Are Uber and Lyft doing this too? Should we tip them in cash? I've wondered if that was better for them.

Uber/UberEats pays their drivers a flat time/distance rate. If a customer gives a tip, this doesn't affect their pay for the drive (unlike DoorDash/Instacart), and the tip is 100% owned by the driver.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#135

Post by qiqing »

Excerpt: "Some are asking for cash tips outside the app, while others are encouraging customers to leave 22-cent tips — a nominal amount meant to show solidarity with workers — through the app and then adjust the tips higher after a delivery has been made."

I think I might do that from now on.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#136

Post by save_ferris »

resters wrote: post #103
save_ferris wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: are ethics taught in MBA programs, and if so, how? Generally speaking, how are MBA's taught to avoid making this very mistake?

I think in this case the ethical issue is not disclosing the policy more directly. I suppose why would anyone tip $5 if the driver would only get $1. My guess is that this isn't really an ethical issue with Instacart, which I view as a very well run company. More likely, the model is a fairly cleverly designed tip jar that accepts tips and then brings up the average wage so that workers have a higher guaranteed minim…

So you're suggesting that this is a dark pattern to direct users into thinking that they're leaving a tip when they're not?

If Instacart chooses to adopt a system that isn't universally understood and transparent to both shoppers and customers, the onus is on them to make sure that users of the app understand what's going on. If they fail to do so, they should be held responsible for it.

Seeing as how thousands of shoppers have organized and signed petitions about this "feature", a clear misunderstanding on the part of shoppers and customers exists here, which demands an explanation as to why Instacart would implement such a confusing, opaque tipping system in the first place.

How does that sound like a well-run company to you?

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#137

Post by PavlovsCat »

bluetidepro wrote: post #101
crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

> Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? This is a really silly assumption. As a UI/UX designer, I have brought up many times at previous companies when they were trying to do sketchy/dark-patterns/etc. to users. At the end of the day, a lot of times, you get classified as someone who is not being a "team player", or are just being "negative." It sucks, but I can bet you…

I don't do crooked stuff, that started in primary school for me, and I don't envy the people who are obedient, they had some short-term gains, sure, but long-term they end up with nothing to say, nothing to do and to be. If one has to be crooked to not risk it, what kind of career is it in the first place?

> You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be. And one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls you to stand up for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause. And you refuse to do it because you are afraid... You refuse to do it because you want to live longer... You're afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you're afraid someone will stab you, or shoot at you or bomb your house; so you refuse to take the stand.

> Well, you may go on and live until you are 90, but you're just as dead at 38 as you would be at 90. And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#138

Post by CharlesColeman »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

> Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything?

I think other commenters have covered the futility of speaking up internally (basically the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine in action), but the question I have is:

Why did no one blow the whistle? Instacart's tip stealing code had likely been in place a long time before any external activists noticed it. An ethical developer could have passed word of it and its implications to activists or journalists right as it went into production. That would not have exposed the dev to retaliation (as it'd be publicly observable in PROD), but would have likely torpedoed the feature before it could do much harm to workers.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#139

Post by treis »

SN76477 wrote: post #31
crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

I am currently working under Grubhub, Doordash, Uber Eats and several other food delivery services. None of them communicate, none of them tell you what is going on, none of them are controlling the conversation their employees are talking about on Facebook. It is PR 101 to control the conversation... but every one of them fail at this when it comes to contractors.

I think that is the big issue. It's ok as a payment scheme, but it's fraud to say 100% of the tips go to the Dasher if a separate payment is reduced based on the tip amount.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#140

Post by jameslevy »

AlexandrB wrote: post #116

Not to be pedantic, but why isn't "Instacart" being annotated as "Instacart (YC S12)" in this latest round of stories? Seems only fair.

You don't see this for the YC startups that have become very mainstream. Reddit is mentioned on a front page HN headline right now (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19087558) without mention of its batch.
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