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Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

nytimes.com

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Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#111

Post by minimaxir »

deogeo wrote: post #99
minimaxir wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument, especially for low-margin businesses like these delivery startups, is that the company might go under if financial tricks aren't in place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Might as well take the path of least embarrassment and hope no one calls out the tricks.

> Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Surely that should be "Business goes under if you don't, executives go to jail for mass fraud if you do."

I'm not a lawyer, but I do wonder what the legal threshold between "following ethics" and "fiduciary duty" is.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#112

Post by metildaa »

irrational wrote: post #39
skrowl wrote: post #10

Just tip $0 in the app and tip in cash, just like Uber / Lyft

What is this cash you speak of? I jest, but seriously, it has been more than a decade since I last had cash on me. I assume there is someway that I could get cash, but it has been so long I'm probably (okay, definitely) not going to go to the trouble. Saying I should tip them in cash is saying that I shouldn't tip them.

Seriously? Your going to claim to not know of the existence of ATMs or cash back at most grocery stores/7-Elevens?

If this is actually your world, I hate to think of the places you'll be constrained to, especially in the US. Seattle is an oddity on the West Coast being card friendly, and from what I gather New York is a cash based economy like most of SoCal.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#113

Post by AndrewKemendo »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

I'm on the IEEE P7010 Standards working group, which is part of the larger P7000 series that is focused on addressing ethical concerns when building software.[1]

As a body, we're going through painstaking effort to build a firm footing for how and why systems designers should build an ethics decision process into their workflow.

However I keep struggling to see why any software developer would care to follow our standards. They don't seem to generally follow any other standards, or even generally know they exist.

I can't think of anything more formalized that would help either, because the monetary incentives of ignoring or never learning about standards just aren't there. If you're just out there winging it, trying to make as much money as possible, what short term incentive do you have to adopt ethics? I'm trying to help find or create real incentives that aren't easy to ignore, so if anyone has any good ideas I'm open.

[1] https://standards.ieee.org/project/7010.html

[2] https://standards.ieee.org/project/7000.html

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#114

Post by cannonedhamster »

rconti wrote: post #104

I've never used Instacart, but I've used GrubHub and DoorDash and the like a couple of times -- I can never remember which one I have an account for, or which one has the restaurant I want, so it's always a hodgepodge. But one thing is clear as day. When I use DoorDash, the tip box says "100% of tip goes to Dasher". Look, I know all of these places either charge me a service fee, or if I'm not being charged a service…

This is a good point and likely going to result in a massive class action that a few of these companies don't survive.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#115

Post by SkyPuncher »

40acres wrote: post #54

I think the fact that a gig economy company with fair (for lack of a better term) labor practices hasn't shown up yet (to my knowledge) is an indictment on the lack of vision from VCs and entrepreneurs. As a recent NYT article showed, we are moving towards a bifurcated economy split between service workers and high skilled work based on technology. The gig economy has the correct foresight in merging the two but due…

> I think the fact that a gig economy company with fair (for lack of a better term) labor practices hasn't shown up yet (to my knowledge) is an indictment on the lack of vision from VCs and entrepreneurs.

IMO, The "fair" gig economies are inversely correlated with their broadness and accessibility. Uber, Lyft, Doordash, Shipt, etc will never be fair because so many people are able (and willing) to race to the bottom.

Things requiring specialized skills generally seem relatively fair. They tend to pay less than a normal job, but still well above minimum wage. That's a fair tradeoff for the flexibility they come with. It's much better than the alternative of not having any options. Tutoring, tech support, care giving, nursing, and more have successful gig economy companies that offer people a way to easily make additional income.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#117

Post by Benjammer »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

The people in positions of power to make these sorts of decisions are almost never incentivized to do anything other than make the maximum possible amount of money for investors/shareholders. I've never heard of a corporate leadership structure that would, for example, reward the lowest executive/director on the totem pole individually for choosing to do something that has a good chance of limiting revenue from what is legally possible, but for empathetic/moral reasons around "caring about users."

And this isn't about some sort of explicit negative incentive against this sort of thing, it's just that the individual incentives to make more money are so much more tantalizing and rewarding. It's not about creating a non-zero incentive out of thin air around moral actions, it's about looking at the overall incentive structure and moving "user empathy" to a higher rung in the overall hierarchy, among things like reducing costs & increasing revenue. You could then argue with me over the appropriate place for "user empathy" in that overall hierarchy, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect mis-aligned incentive structures to produce many cases (always can be outliers...) of someone in a leadership position "doing the right thing" from a moral standpoint outside the numbers of the business.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#118

Post by tedmiston »

bluedino wrote: post #79
resters wrote: post #25

Why doesn't this problem exist when I order something from Amazon? Because there is no absurd idea that I should be tipping the UPS guy or anyone else involved in fulfilling my order. It makes much more sense for InstaCart to simply collect star ratings and offer bonuses for the employees who are going above and beyond. Considering how often the shopper has to call me about replacements, parking outside my building,…

It's not uncommon to tip your UPS/FedEx delivery person, or your USPS carrier. At least around the holidays.

One of my close friends is a USPS courier. Technically they are never allowed to accept cash or cash equivalents like gift cards.

You can give them small non-cash-like gifts such as a bottle of wine though.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2012/pb22349/html/cov...

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#120

Post by Sylamore »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

I've been in similar meetings and spoken out against similar shadiness. I was told the decision was made and it was happening because a new revenue stream on a process that was otherwise already saving us money was too irresistible and to shut up and do my job, there was a long line of people willing to replace me.

I did eventually leave that company and at least one of the specific individuals involved in pushing that decision were ultimately caught embezzling money and fired, but they were not otherwise punished and they had a new job within a week.

Hell our CEO from when we were involved in a 880 million dollar accounting scandal got off effectively Scott free despite anyone who ever worked with him knowing he personally directed the accounting fraud that lead to the scandal. Only the CMO got any jail time.

My point is that if the rot is from the top down, no amount of speaking up is going to do anything except limit your career path. There is limited recourse for holding the decision makers accountable.

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