Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 376 posts

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#101

Post by bluetidepro »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #4

This is a great example in my opinion of the apathy we need to combat as technologists. Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? "This is wrong/greedy/will have blowback." No one voiced concerns? Or, more specifically, if they did, no one listened? They didn't think this would leak out, with all the hatred regarding wage stagnation, income inequality, corporate greed? A ma…

> Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything?

This is a really silly assumption. As a UI/UX designer, I have brought up many times at previous companies when they were trying to do sketchy/dark-patterns/etc. to users. At the end of the day, a lot of times, you get classified as someone who is not being a "team player", or are just being "negative." It sucks, but I can bet you that people there probably did speak up about this, but it got now where and they didn't want to risk their career over it. If you were in their shoes, would you quit your job over this if you spoke up and they still didn't listen? It's easy to answer that from the outside, but not everyone has the ability to do that. It's much more complicated.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#102

Post by tedmiston »

save_ferris wrote: post #77
airstrike wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An MBA would point out that in the this isn't a sustainable strategy, regardless of any concept of fairness. Backlash from customers and workers is virtually guaranteed to hurt long-term profits.

Serious question: are ethics taught in MBA programs, and if so, how? Generally speaking, how are MBA's taught to avoid making this very mistake?

Not sure if it's a required curriculum unit, but I audited some MBA courses and Leadership & Ethics was one of the available courses. It consisted largely of reviewing and discussions based on case studies and ethically complex scenarios.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#103

Post by resters »

save_ferris wrote: post #77
airstrike wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An MBA would point out that in the this isn't a sustainable strategy, regardless of any concept of fairness. Backlash from customers and workers is virtually guaranteed to hurt long-term profits.

Serious question: are ethics taught in MBA programs, and if so, how? Generally speaking, how are MBA's taught to avoid making this very mistake?

I think in this case the ethical issue is not disclosing the policy more directly. I suppose why would anyone tip $5 if the driver would only get $1.

My guess is that this isn't really an ethical issue with Instacart, which I view as a very well run company.

More likely, the model is a fairly cleverly designed tip jar that accepts tips and then brings up the average wage so that workers have a higher guaranteed minimum, in exchange for some tips not going directly toward their own pay.

This is a clever system, which likely derived from the optional "service fee" which Instacart used to incorporate, which was used to fund additional employee benefits.

The problem is that when you call it a "tip" then people expect it to work a specific way and so the underlying clever idea is lost and the company appears to have done something shady.

Look at the history of Instacart's explorations of a service fee and you'll see that what's going on. I think Instacart deserves credit for trying to find a better solution to this problem than what had existed before, though I think a smarter way to do it would be to let customers optionally contribute to the "bonus till" that is paid out companywide to customer-facing staff who have the best star ratings.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#104

Post by rconti »

I've never used Instacart, but I've used GrubHub and DoorDash and the like a couple of times -- I can never remember which one I have an account for, or which one has the restaurant I want, so it's always a hodgepodge.

But one thing is clear as day. When I use DoorDash, the tip box says "100% of tip goes to Dasher".

Look, I know all of these places either charge me a service fee, or if I'm not being charged a service fee, they're marking up the food over list price AND getting a discount from the restaurant for the extra volume generated by the company. FINE.

But when you tell me 100% of my tip goes to the tippee and then you take money out of their pay because I tipped them, that is fraud. Money is a fungible good. It doesn't matter that "my" money went to the Dasher, and you took "your" money from them. In fact, that's not even true, because it's all in one CC transaction anyway. 100% of my tip did NOT go to the Dasher.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#105

Post by darkpuma »

a-wu wrote: post #60

DoorDash is extremely helpful for me because I'm disabled and can't cook so it's really convenient for me to be able to order food for delivery when I don't have a caregiver around to cook food for me. I'm extremely disappointed by DoorDash's policies but because of my circumstances I can't just boycott. I live in a college town too, so most DoorDash drivers are students who are just barely getting by, so I'll be tip…

You should call your local grocery store and see if they have a delivery program. Many if not most do, although it's typically poorly advertised or unadvertised. You can have them deliver prepared food from the store.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#106

Post by tedmiston »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #96
save_ferris wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: are ethics taught in MBA programs, and if so, how? Generally speaking, how are MBA's taught to avoid making this very mistake?

Pardon my interruption, but I think a perfectly adequate response would be to counter by asking if ethics are taught in CS/CE programs (or what curricula have ethics prereqs)

Yes, ethics are a required component of the ABET CS model curriculum.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#107

Post by criddell »

minimaxir wrote: post #90
jonknee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? Who's to say someone didn't? All we know is they decided to steal tips, not that everyone thought it was a great idea.

The argument, especially for low-margin businesses like these delivery startups, is that the company might go under if financial tricks aren't in place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Might as well take the path of least embarrassment and hope no one calls out the tricks.

I'd have more sympathy if there were also giving equity to the people they are stealing from.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#108

Post by cannonedhamster »

minimaxir wrote: post #90
jonknee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why did NO ONE in any meetings when designing this "feature" or process say anything? Who's to say someone didn't? All we know is they decided to steal tips, not that everyone thought it was a great idea.

The argument, especially for low-margin businesses like these delivery startups, is that the company might go under if financial tricks aren't in place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Might as well take the path of least embarrassment and hope no one calls out the tricks.

So maybe your business model is flawed? If you can't survive without robbing your employees then you shouldn't survive at all. This would easily be solvable by building growth organically, or having companies that hook into your service willingly to offer delivery at lower cost to them than hiring a full time employee. This would necessarily limit usefulness to larger population centers, but would make it more viable long term.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#109

Post by sfilargi »

chaboud wrote: post #6

I have a simple answer: I will never use Instacart or Doordash again, ever. Even if they change their policy, they are dead to me as companies, and any company that acquires them is similarly dead to me. If you're out there, upstart disruptors, know that pulling stuff like this will cost you at least one customer for life. I'm sure that there are more people like me.

Why take such drastic measures? Just use their system against them.

What I always, always do, is put $0 as a tip in the system and then tip the delivery person, in cash or using some app/paypal/etc., when they bring my order.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#110

Post by walls »

irrational wrote: post #39
skrowl wrote: post #10

Just tip $0 in the app and tip in cash, just like Uber / Lyft

What is this cash you speak of? I jest, but seriously, it has been more than a decade since I last had cash on me. I assume there is someway that I could get cash, but it has been so long I'm probably (okay, definitely) not going to go to the trouble. Saying I should tip them in cash is saying that I shouldn't tip them.

Stop at a bank every six months and pick up a few fives, it's really not that complicated.
Post reply on HN