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With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

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Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#91

Post by ncphillips »

danabramov wrote: post #85
judofyr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soo, why couldn't this be implemented as: class ToggleButton extends React.Component { flag = useState(this, true) count = useState(this, 0) other = useEffect(this, () => { ... }) render() { return this.flag.set(!this.flag.current)>{this.flag.current} } } Then it's very clear that we have two separate sections: initialization and rendering. There's no longer a hidden state stored somewhere else, but you know that if…

But that’s not how it works. They don’t run during initialization, they run on every render. That’s their whole point and what makes them dynamic. I tried to explain this here: https://overreacted.io/why-do-hooks-rely-on-call-order/#flaw...

This is such an excellent point. I made a prototype of a class based alternative to hooks, and while I liked some aspects of the API more, it definitely did not take this use case into account!

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#92

Post by Tade0 »

azangru wrote: post #79

Slightly off-topic, but has any of those who dislike hooks for the added magic seen Svelte.js version 3? It is ridden with magic. Top-level variables in the block are "observable" in the Vue sense of the word and accessible in the block; so whenever they change, the relevant parts of the template get updated. The creator of Svelte says that it's very intuitive, and that developer experience is great. I wonder what yo…

To be fair Svelte does have the word "magical" in its motto.

I personally don't see it as anymore magical than MobX - it's just taking it a step further by taking advantage of the fact that bindings are created at compile time.

This is consistent with how things are generally done in this framework.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#93

Post by hesarenu »

fiatjaf wrote: post #75
Waterluvian wrote: post #65

Based on the consistent supply of comments sharing hesitation/confusion whenever hooks are talked about, I'm curious. Is this a normal reaction to a new thing that ends up being a very good idea? Are there past examples of this? I can't quite tell if it's a sign that something's off or if this is just normal.

Well, when React first came out no one was convinced by it. It took more than 2 years, I guess, before everybody suddenly got convinced and started claiming it was the best thing and so on.

I was not convinced either, Code and UI together!. If you ask me now there is nothing better then reactjs out there. I would not hesitate to change if there was something better.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#94

Post by fendy3002 »

Vinnl wrote: post #48
skrebbel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think time will tell. It's basically the magic vs explicit discussion all over again. Like usually in this discussion, the magic approach is really appealing until it doesn't work, and then the pro-explicit people will go all "told you so" on you. I personally really prefer explicit, having cut my fingers on magic one time too often. Instead, I'll gladly create classes if the thing I'm making has its own state (of…

> It's basically the magic vs explicit discussion all over again. Like usually in this discussion, the magic approach is really appealing until it doesn't work, and then the pro-explicit people will go all "told you so" on you. Well... Have any "pro-explicit people" gone all "told you so" about all the magic that's going on with setState? I don't think so. I don't think it's a binary magic vs explicit choice. I usual…

What's wrong with setstate? I have used it without problem.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#95

Post by sametmax »

BilalBudhani wrote: post #44

Hooks seem to be a drastic change in how we're going to write React components in the future. I'm quite satisfied with the current way of writing components which is to me is very explicit (with no magic). With Hooks React is taking a different direction from their original motto of explicit design patterns. From the looks of it, Hooks seems like a counter-intuitive design pattern but traditionally that's how most of…

Glad to read that as the top comment, because when they came out, I expressed strong doubts about this new features, and I mostly received mad comments in return. The alienated react fans stated that I didn't understand what modern code was, what a great idea those were and how from now on, everything will be better.

Now hooks are certainly a technically interesting pattern. I can see why it can be desirable by some. But I can't shake the feeling it has too of a big potential for misuse and could add a lot of complexity to a react, a tool that already has a big cognitive load with an ecosystem letting easily creep technical debt.

Besides, an important part of the JS community, up to now, has let me inconvinced about its ability to do the right thing, not to mention learning from other's past mistakes or even admitting when something is a problem at all.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#96

Post by pluma »

genezeta wrote: post #88
barryhoodlum wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it gets a bit tedious seeing 90% of comments on HN being from people who clearly haven't tried the thing, or even given it any thought or consideration beyond an initial "this is not familiar to me so therefore bad!" kneejerk reaction. It's not a great look for a developer and I don't know why they seem so proud of their close-minded attitude.

Yes, it gets a bit tedious seeing 90% of comments from React fanboys being from people who clearly just repeat each others arguments, or even give no argument at all beyond "I'm assuming you are stupid because people who are not clearly all love this feature". It's not a great look for a developer and I don't know why they seem so proud of their close-minded attitude.

This is basically the NPC meme but for technologies instead of politics.

I've been building websites since the 1990s and web applications since the mid-2000s. I've used a wide range of web technologies and despite being "self-taught" went out of my way to broaden my horizon beyond the imminently useful.

My initial reaction to JSX was dismissive ridicule: "XML in JS? Yeah, because that worked out so well when we did that in ActionScript. And building your own component tree as a template language was already a bad idea when I rolled my own implementation in PHP fifteen years ago".

My initial reaction to hooks was confusion: "The sequence is important? Why wouldn't you just name things instead? Why does everything start with "use"? What the heck is even going on?"

Both times I looked into it and realised I was wrong and my intuition was just rejection of the unfamiliar and a profound misunderstanding of how the technology I was dismissing actually works.

I'm not a "React fanboy". I can't say what framework I'll be using five or ten years from now. It doesn't look like there's anything around that I would choose to replace it (though I have to admit Vue is a contender if only because it seems more beginner-friendly) but I've gone through enough technologies all over the stack not to make the foolish assumption that the things I use today will be the things I use in the future.

I was confused by hooks, so I paid close attention to the demos and explanations. I learned how they work and why they have the limitations they explicitly tell you to be aware of. That's when I got truly excited. Not because I was dazzled but because I saw the potential and understood how they compared to what I am already using.

Stoic sarcasm went out of style in the 90s. Maybe you should give empathy a try. Maybe, just maybe, some of the people who are truly enthusiastic about hooks aren't simply naive, maybe some are enthusiastic because they do understand how hooks work and what implications they have.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#97

Post by have_faith »

danabramov wrote: post #58
have_faith wrote: post #47

I've read a lot about hooks, the reasoning all makes sense but I'm still not fully getting it at an intuitive level. Like I get that it means you can write functional versions of class based components, an example of a complex class component that has been converted to a function with hooks would be good. The counter example really leaves a lot to the imagination. The examples in https://usehooks.com/ aren't convinci…

A major point of Hooks is that they’re composable — unlike lifecycle methods. You can separate different reusable pieces of logic into Hooks, and then combine them or pass values between them. You can even call the same Hook more than once. I’ve wrote about new possibilities they unlock here: https://medium.com/@dan_abramov/making-sense-of-react-hooks-... Hope this helps.

Appreciate the response. I think at the moment the onus is on me to experiment with the hooks api more and hold off any judgement. Conceptually I'm fully with you, I just need some hands on experience. Plus anything that stops me making token HOC's for Redux just to interact with my global state can only be a good thing.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#98

Post by arethuza »

danabramov wrote: post #57
BilalBudhani wrote: post #44

Hooks seem to be a drastic change in how we're going to write React components in the future. I'm quite satisfied with the current way of writing components which is to me is very explicit (with no magic). With Hooks React is taking a different direction from their original motto of explicit design patterns. From the looks of it, Hooks seems like a counter-intuitive design pattern but traditionally that's how most of…

In case you’re curious, I recently wrote up a deep dive on React from first principles that includes Hooks. https://overreacted.io/react-as-a-ui-runtime/ Personally I don’t see them as being either “magic” or “implicit”. You might find my post helpful for conceptualizing how they fit into the picture. (Warning: it is a longread. But it also explains 90% of React on a single page.)

I'm fairly new to the React world, but the content of that article was really interesting!

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#99

Post by case_of_snakes »

talkingtab wrote: post #72
BilalBudhani wrote: post #44

Hooks seem to be a drastic change in how we're going to write React components in the future. I'm quite satisfied with the current way of writing components which is to me is very explicit (with no magic). With Hooks React is taking a different direction from their original motto of explicit design patterns. From the looks of it, Hooks seems like a counter-intuitive design pattern but traditionally that's how most of…

My litmus test for technology is whether it results in a) fewer lines of code b) simpler code and c) does it make me more productive. My experience with using hooks is that I rip out lots of cruft and it is easier for me to get my head around how to write things so I am more productive. The cost is learning a new paradigm, but the benefit for me was very high.

I strongly recommend you temper your criterion `a` by how much the abstractions help or impede your understanding of the code later on, especially when trying to diagnose a bug.

Re: With React 16.8, React Hooks are available in a stable release

#100

Post by genezeta »

pluma wrote: post #96
genezeta wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it gets a bit tedious seeing 90% of comments from React fanboys being from people who clearly just repeat each others arguments, or even give no argument at all beyond "I'm assuming you are stupid because people who are not clearly all love this feature". It's not a great look for a developer and I don't know why they seem so proud of their close-minded attitude.

This is basically the NPC meme but for technologies instead of politics. I've been building websites since the 1990s and web applications since the mid-2000s. I've used a wide range of web technologies and despite being "self-taught" went out of my way to broaden my horizon beyond the imminently useful. My initial reaction to JSX was dismissive ridicule: "XML in JS? Yeah, because that worked out so well when we did t…

> Maybe, just maybe, some of the people who are truly enthusiastic about hooks aren't simply naive, maybe some are enthusiastic because they do understand how hooks work and what implications they have.

In the exact same way that some of the people who are not enthusiastic aren't people who haven't looked at Hooks and don't understand them. Maybe they aren't enthusiastic even though they do understand them.

That is exactly the point. Not your experience since the 1990s or my sarcasm, but not assuming that if someone does not agree with your view must be because they don't understand.

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