Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#211

Post by rdlecler1 » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:12 PM UTC

rytor718 wrote: post #178

woodpanel wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't like the outcome of his thought-process as well but to be fair, it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. The answer to this in my opinion is a job-market with less job-security regulation (so that "getting new workers up to speed" will be the norm not the exception for companies) coupled with a tighter social security net (maternity leave paid for by the gove…

> it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value ind…

Someone running a small business is usually most concerned about survival, not individuality. And if you think small businesses first priority should be substantial organizational preparation and planning then it's clear you've never tried to start a company. The main focus for most entrepreneurs is survival in face of the market. Fail at that and you are doomed to fail. I'm both a parent and a small business owner and I think 1-year parental leave is ridiculous.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#212

Post by noidea_ » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:12 PM UTC

FlorianRappl wrote: post #87

noidea_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but in Sweden, it's not a huge deal if the person that makes the Ikea meatballs takes a year off

You got my smile ;). Also in Germany its no problem since all we do is sausages. Wonder why a burger so different that the person making it cannot be on parental leave for a year.

The burger has many more layers. It's significantly more complex. As someone who spent some time working in Germany, my coworkers were obsessed with hamburgers. And mayo on everything.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#213

Post by wittedhaddock » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

They ought to receive overwhelming congratulations and support for testing the idea

How do we create a culture that totally celebrates the process of experimentation even if the results from the result test aren't the pie in the sky we hoped for?

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#214

Post by maxsilver » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #208

dwild wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying that you have a higher chance that a young woman will carry a baby than having a young man change for a better paying offer? I'm one of theses young one out of college and I can tell you, based around me, your stats are clearly wrong ;). Most don't care about babies, but they all certainly care about getting more interesting jobs. I'm Canadian too.

If someone leaves I can find a replacement and hope they don't leave. If a women has a baby then I will either need to hire a temp which is more difficult than to hire for full time position or suddenly have 2 positions open (I need to have that when my first employee comes back). For a small few people company having 2 positions open instead of one is often unreasonable cost.

> I will either need to hire a temp which is more difficult than to hire for full time position

We're still talking about programmers, right? Because it is way easier to hire a part-time contract programmer, than it is to hire a full-time programmer. If anything, the best devs are often already freelancing/consulting anyway, and would prefer you hire them this way.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#215

Post by souprock » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #101

Rebelgecko wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those 400+ days per parent or divvied up between the parents? I imagine that can have a big impact on how the leave affects companies.

480 days together. Of those, 90 days each are non-transferrable (between the parents).

Wow. I would almost never work. I'm having my 12th kid soon, and my wife doesn't work. At 390 days (roughly 13 months) per kid, I could pretty much just not work.

Why don't people do this in Sweden? There are so few kids!

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#216

Post by james_s_tayler » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

unavoidable wrote: post #133

james_s_tayler wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Canada is more collectivist than individualist?

Judging by the temperature of sibling HN comments and the degree of Canada-bashing from US-based individuals, it does indeed seem like there is a difference in degree of individualist mindset.

Sibling countries bashing each other is common the world over. Is the nature of the bashing such that it is making claims of some sort of collectivist nature? And to what degree does a claim made during some kind of rivalry make something accurate or true?

Australians often like to claim New Zealanders have sexual relations with sheep when they engage in good old fashioned country bashing. I would hazard a guess that stunningly few New Zealanders have ever fucked a sheep, though I would assume a handful have and what's more I'd assume the same to be true of Australia too. But it's clearly not like the claim has any sort of merit as it applies to the general population.

I don't have deep experience with Canada, so I would be interested to be pointed in the direction of anything that would indicate that collectivism was more prevalent in Canada than Individualism.

I have a hard time buying it. I'm from NZ and I've always felt we are much closer to Canada than the US. I've also lived in Australia for a couple of years. Aus and NZ are completely similar along certain dimensions and really different along other ones. But I would venture to say that they're both heavy into Individualism. As is the States and from what I have seen of Canada I assumed I would feel quite at home there.

Comparing my experience with Japan over the last 10 years, which is heavily collectivist, I just can't bring myself to the conclusion that personality wise and the types of things that come out of Canadians mouths about how one should conduct oneself in society is closer to that of the Japanese than it is to that of Americans.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#217

Post by neffy » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #95

unavoidable wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly few people are actually trying to answer this question on this thread. The answer is straightforward: you either structure your organization so that there are enough overlapping responsibilities to account for parental leaves (e.g. good business practice of not making a fragile organization), or you hire a temporary employee explicitly on a 1 year "parental leave" contract. The labour market is quite goo…

It's surely doable in big organizations but small businesses it's an overwhelming cost even if the government pays the salary of the worker on a leave (the only way it can really work). Maybe the answer to that problem is that really important employees who make a lot of money shouldn't be hired as normal workers but as contractors. Something like: if you get 3x more average salary then you are important but you only…

If you're looking for a 3rd programmer, you're looking for somebody who can commit to the short term future of the company with - if you're wise - an explicit guarantee of long term rewards.

Excluding half the population from that search will absolutely ensure that you don't get unlucky hiring a man who, develop schizophrenia (symptoms occur typically in younger males), runs off with your IP, decides he doesn't want to stick the long hours, his wife/girlfriend has a child and he wants a more stable position, can't stand your attitude, or all the other reasons that make people, male and female leave small companies run by people who make bad decisions. In the grand scheme of things that can go horribly wrong for startup companies, female pregnancy is actually the least of your worries.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#218

Post by sandworm101 » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:19 PM UTC

otoburb wrote: post #182

muizelaar wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parental leave in Canada is paid by Employment Insurance not the employer.

True, but Canadian firms also compete with one another for talent, and many top firms (presumably more applicable to a whiteshoe law firm) offer "top up" the employe's parental leave salary to X% -- the best I've seen is 80%, but perhaps competing for top talent employers could offer up to 100%. In this instance, both the government and the employers are shouldering that cost.

Exactly. Many law firms in Canada ensure paternity leave pays out at 100% of salary. Lawyers, like a great many other professions, also come with additional costs. Her dues, her training, insurance, her benefits package, all were paid. Not to mention, when she returns, it is at salary similar to what she would have expected had she stayed. So now they have a new attorney with no experience outside of law school, being paid the equivalent of one with 2+ year experience. All these costs add up.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#219

Post by bluecalm » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #171

bluecalm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>So, OTOH, is a sex discrimination lawsuit, especially when you are blatantly guilty. Yeah, lawsuit or my children not being able to afford college. Oh the choices... I think I am taking the lawsuit, especially that it will be very hard to prove anything with just one employee. >>Also, most Western jurisdictions with paid or even unpaid but job-protected parental leave policies apply them without limitation by gende…

> Yeah, lawsuit or my children not being able to afford college. I don't think you've researched the costs of the kind of lawsuit at issue for your business if you think that it's less than you'd lose by having the employee in the position take a year off on job-protected leave.

I am not in US, in my country lawyers don't carry a big stick. In US on the other hand I wouldn't need to be sexist as I don't have to promise parental leaves so that would make things easier. Small businesses don't have to offer that till they are big enough so it makes sense for them.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#220

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #185

celticninja wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your cognitive dissonance must be impressive. You have recently wrote: >She is openly racist and sexist so good riddance > I think it's very reasonable to be against Islam because of its stance on gay rights, women rights And here you are being sexist and ignoring the right of women to not be discriminated against because of their gender. How do you reconcile these positions inside your own head?

There is a difference between saying things like women are worse employees or don't deserve same rights as men and being put in position to choose between being sexist when hiring and putting someone's else children above well-being of your family. I hope you can understand the difference.

I'm sure the typical person you'd say "good riddance" about also is doing the best for their family. Is it correct for people to say "good riddance" about your opinion?

And being sexist when hiring is saying they're a worse employee and don't deserve the same rights.