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Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

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191–200 of 412 posts

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#191

I am against one-year parental leaves. My wife and I want ten children. That means ten years off work? How can a company manage? What if I were a less moral man and got two women pregnant a year? I mean, it's not that difficult. Even for faithful men, we plan on trying again (last baby born in December) in a few months. Is it really fair to ask my company to pay for my sex life? More worryingly, what kind of incentiv…

the point of perks is to attract talent. if you want 10 kids it'll take you about 20 years. if the company got someone to stay for 20 years, the perk worked and no one has any incentives to make things better for working parents. the only incentives are to make things better for top talent. it just so happens that more experienced people tend to be that top talent. and more experienced people are older, and older peo…

> and no one has any incentives to make things better for working parents. the only incentives are to make things better for top talent. it just so happens that more experienced people tend to be that top talent. and more experienced people are older, and older people tend to have more kids. the company should try to make things better for top talent and if that is being more flexible on schedules, or vacation, then they should do it (and most companies do both of these)

Correct, which is why these government mandates are rubbish.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#192

My mom had 4 children within 7 years. It's crazy to think someone could be employed somewhere 7 years and only work 3. You'd have to hire 2.3 people to get 1 full-time employee!

> It's crazy to think someone could be employed somewhere 7 years and only work 3. Alternative take: It's humane to think that someone who had four kids wouldn't lose their job because they had four kids.

Is it? Having 4 kids is not exactly something anyone has to do. Where we spend our time is a choice. If someone decides to spend significantly less time working to raise 4 kids, is it really inhumane to allow the employer to replace them with someone who wants to spend more time working?

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#193

> [heading] How do they manage in Canada? > In Canada, companies have had no option but to make 52-week parental leaves work, when requested, since 2000. The question Canadian companies ask isn’t “Can we do it?” but “How do we do it?” Okay, so... how do they do it? They never answer the question. If you have say, a CFO or a specialist mechanic (that you only need 1 of, but definitely need) and they take a year off, w…

Surprisingly few people are actually trying to answer this question on this thread. The answer is straightforward: you either structure your organization so that there are enough overlapping responsibilities to account for parental leaves (e.g. good business practice of not making a fragile organization), or you hire a temporary employee explicitly on a 1 year "parental leave" contract. The labour market is quite goo…

> Surprisingly few people are actually trying to answer this question on this thread. The answer is straightforward: you either structure your organization so that there are enough overlapping responsibilities to account for parental leaves (e.g. good business practice of not making a fragile organization), or you hire a temporary employee explicitly on a 1 year "parental leave" contract.

Obviously. But doing this imposes costs on the organization. Those costs scale (possibly non-linearly) with length of leave. The question we have to ask is, what is the amount of time off that balances the interests of the company, the economy, and the parents optimally? The Gates foundation is saying 1 year does not strike a good balance for them, because the organizational costs are simply too high. That's what being said here.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#194

I am against one-year parental leaves. My wife and I want ten children. That means ten years off work? How can a company manage? What if I were a less moral man and got two women pregnant a year? I mean, it's not that difficult. Even for faithful men, we plan on trying again (last baby born in December) in a few months. Is it really fair to ask my company to pay for my sex life? More worryingly, what kind of incentiv…

Your argument is so convoluted that you were probably better off not saying anything at all. It seems like you're starting from a conclusion and providing all of the things that support your conclusion. Instead, consider all the data and see what conclusions are revealed. You haven't conceded a single merit to the counterargument.

I started from a conclusion (that one year parental leave is a good thing) and then argued it leads to a number of outcomes which I deem unsatisfactory. Thus, I reject the initial conclusion.

This is a form of argument by contradiction, or reductio ad absurdum. Part of it, is actually assuming the conclusion and then showing that it contradicts itself or leads to other unsavoriness.

One criticism of reductio ad absurdum is if the arguer sets up a straw man, but I'm not sure you've successfully pointed out any straw man in my argument.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#195
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Men can get parental leave in European countries, so in this case your strategy is not working. Depends on the country. In mine women get much more time and men usually take none or just a few weeks at most. I think that's the case in most countries.

Men do now have 2 months of parental leave, if they do not use that they lose it. This is per a new EU law from last year.

EU bloke here (well, for now, pending Brexit...) - do you have any more info on this? I think last time I took paternity leave it was only 2 weeks on full pay, and a further 2 weeks on half pay. Is the 2 months you mention on full pay?

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#196
post #3

I’m not surprised. This is so different to how workplaces are usually run in the US that organizations, or society even, has no institutional memory on how to deal with it. In Sweden, where 400+ days of parental leave has been mandatory for years organization have adapted and learned patterns and ways to deal with people dissappearing for around a year. It’s a shame the Gates Foundation didn’t research this better be…

Could someone from Sweden talk about how a year or more ofleave works in practice?

I am curious about:

* what percentage of parents take the full year or more of leave?

* how much of a salary reduction happens on leave?

* how much of the leave salary is paid directly by the employer versus by the government?

* does the year have to be taken consecutively, or can you break it up into chunks?

* what happens to the temporary employee once the parent is back from leave?

* if the parent has another child while on leave, can they extend leave by another year?

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#197
I kind of feel, and this is simply based on the personal observations of a few dozen parental leaves (including a few in my own family) that it's not so much the duration of time, but the ease back into work that is the important factor in reaching maximum balance for the family and company. I think 6 months off (26 weeks) is a good number, but spreadable over 18 months at the will of the parent. I feel this would make things much better than a cold-cut 6 months then back into the fire that a traditional 6 month leave would garner. I see a 3 months of full time off, followed with 2 days a week for 3 months, then 3 days for 2 more months before returning in full would be more beneficial to most companies and families to avoid the "that resource is gone for more than a quarter and needs to be replaced" conflict that happens during a 6 or 12 month "cold turkey" approach. I've also seen noticeable anxiety in mothers about returning to the workplace after a 12 month absence, compared to a 3 month.

I see the Canadian system being praised a lot in these comments, and in fact there are many laudable benefits to the system, but several acute shortcomings which are often overlooked when touting socialized parental leave. The system is firstly paid by deductions made to all salaries, which differs from an employer-paid system where the employer pays the leave. Under the Canadian system, if a company decides to pay an employee for the period, the government contributes that much less. This has a chilling effect on companies paying for leave, where almost all do not since there is no credit to employees working for a company which offers this, and individuals are still taxed the same on this portion. Additionally, it is a maximum of 12 months split between the father and mother, and depending on the duration and the % of father or mother, is a sliding scale between 50% and 75% of either your trailing salary for 6 months or a maximum of $60,000 per year, whichever is less. This makes it very difficult for a single breadwinner to support a family of 3 for a period of 1 year off of this benefit alone. In the majority of cases I'm familiar with, those individuals who took their 2 weeks and returned to work simply because the proposed benefit is not enough to pay the bills, thereby forfeiting tax benefits that they paid for and will continue to pay towards for the rest of their salaried life. And while you do stop contributing to this for the year once you pass $60,000 in pay for the year, there is no "exemption" if you don't use it and certainly no "payout" if you don't. In addition to this, you are taxed at your marginal tax % on any benefits you receive from this program, making it even less palatable for someone in a high tax bracket looking to take several months of leave. Someone in this tax bracket is usually working in a role that requires specialized knowledge or skills and are by that very nature harder to replace/restaff - even looking away from the impact to the company, taking that leave in many cases results in making some career sacrifices for that parent. A 3 month fully paid leave (to both parents) with no tax deduction would be preferable to the current system in almost all cases I've seen.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't like the outcome of his thought-process as well but to be fair, it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. The answer to this in my opinion is a job-market with less job-security regulation (so that "getting new workers up to speed" will be the norm not the exception for companies) coupled with a tighter social security net (maternity leave paid for by the gove…

> it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value ind…

Man, small businesses often don't have any "organizational planning". You work every day and hope the others (maybe one, two or three people) do as well. You go by and hope for the best. Most often you fail or don't really make much. Once you are the stage of "organizational preparation and planning" it's a different ball-game. The problem is that you have to somehow start and most of the world isn't full of VS money where starting means you get a budget of several million. You mostly start with whatever little savings you have and hope your first orders come fast enough so you can pay bills when savings dry up.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet you call out others for sexist behaviour and then behave that way yourself.

That's the problem. The laws are set in a way that I am either sexist or put my children well being below someone's else. The incentives are there to be sexists maybe let's think how to set them right.

You are wondering how you put your children through a private (paid for) school, whilst the employee might be wondering about feeding and accomodating theirs. Your children's well being is at a much higher level than those of your employees I am sure.

How do you propose to make it right? You already flout the existing laws, it's not like you would voluntarily enact something. So your proposition is to what? Get rid of maternity/paternity leave laws entirely? Make it fair by not letting anyone have parental leave?

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#200
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except on a global scale.

That's why I'm opposed to free trade and want fair trade instead. Like, it's not wrong for e.g. EU to impose a tax on products/services produced by companies abroad that have much less strict environmental/employment laws.

Right, but your definition of 'fair' employment laws might make poor countries unable to compete and thus stay poor.

Example: poor countries can't afford the level of worker safety that rich countries can. So do you not trade with them? They then stay poor and work as subsistence farmers, something a lot worse than working in a sweatshop.

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