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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#471

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

sigi45 wrote: post #464
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about how hard you work. It's about how many people can do what you do. Don't sell yourself short, in tech you have skills that only a small percentage of the population are capable of doing. We might all say "Programming is easy" or "I really only work half the day" but for many people Programming is seen as witchcraft, and for many what would take a skilled developer an hour would take a whole day (or wors…

I think very similiar to ighhh. It doesn't make it fair that in theory 'everyone' could get into it or that it takes probably much longer for someone to do my job than the other way around (like yes i think i would be able to sell things). I don't know how we should incentive instead but it doesn't make it fair.

You're just basing your view of what's fair on time spent working/physical labor. If you base your view of what's fair on skillsets, and what one person can do, and what one person can not, it makes more sense.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#472

Post by linkmotif »

lghh wrote: post #458
linkmotif wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won’t shame me. You can’t make me feel ashamed of my father, who got my family out of poverty and didn’t even know how to order a beer or a meal at a restaurant until he was 55 because that’s just not how we spent money. Your perspective is rooted in the heights of privilege and entitlement, wherein first world people can live cozy secure lives, entitled to leisure and “hobbies” on the backs of second and third w…

> You can’t make me feel ashamed of my father, who got my family out of poverty and didn’t even know how to order a beer or a meal at a restaurant until he was 55 because that’s just not how we spent money. I never asked you to feel ashamed for that. I'm asking that you don't require everyone go though the same struggles as revenge. Get this... I also think the people who are working to create the things that you are…

Basic premise: it is undignified and immoral to buy things from people who labor tremendously and still live at a different standard of living, and to give those things for free to people here, at our standard of living. That just strikes me as incredibly twisted and immoral.

Imagine the look of those people in China who have to work to produce Tracfones, if they saw their Tracfone just given out to someone here for free, who didn't do anything to earn it? Imagine how they would feel? That feeling is not about revenge, it's about you denying them basic dignity. You're saying to him or her: you're a Chinaman, you have to do work, but we just take your work and give it to people for free. They must be better than you! They don't have to do anything because they're American. But you, you're just an inferior person from China so you have to work.

That's a brutal injustice in my opinion.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#473

Post by ndnxhs »

wil421 wrote: post #170
baroffoos wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew a guy who worked 6 months a year doing contract work and then spent the other 6 months on hobbies and personal projects. I remember asking him if he gets bored during those 6 months not working and he said to me "I don't base my life enjoyment off of making someone else money". That advice has really stuck to me and its really cool to see the electronics projects he builds in those 6 months.

Does this guy have a family and kids? I worked with a guy who does a similar thing. In fact his contract just ended. The only reason he said he’s able to is because he’s older, single, and doesn’t have kids.

He has a boyfriend and no kids so I guess a high paying programming contract is easily enough to cover his needs.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#474

Post by AnimalMuppet »

0x262d wrote: post #359

in 1847, Marx wrote Wage Labour and Capital, an accessible pamphlet that made the prediction that over time, the middle classes will be squeezed out of prosperity and the majority of people's wages will trend downwards, until they hit a fundamental low point: the minimum amount required to reproduce the next generation of workers. the key point is that this is completely endemic to capitalism, which is characterized…

> abolishing private ownership of capital and democratically allocating society's productive resources is the only solution.

But attempts to do so have resulted in more suffering and death, rather than less. Maybe we don't need to solve it at that price. Or maybe there's a better solution than the one you propose.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#475

Post by malvosenior »

sigi45 wrote: post #466
avgDev wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also argue that writing code is a grind. I would enjoy writing code maybe 2-4 hours a day tops but when you want to get something done and code for 7 hours straight it is really tough to do. Learning new concepts all the time, emotional waves, errors that can impact companies on a large scale. Programming is really difficult and requires constant engagement in the industry.

Yes its work. But you know what is also work? Cleaning shit from others the whole day. I also can imagine selling stuff is draining or catering for others. I'm valuated more because i'm more needed and a company can make more money with me than without me. This still doesn't make it fair.

> This still doesn't make it fair.

You're not taking into account the thousands of hours people have to put in to learning how to program. That's real work and sacrifice. It's not unfair that that investment pays off.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#476

Post by ndnxhs »

croh wrote: post #138
baroffoos wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew a guy who worked 6 months a year doing contract work and then spent the other 6 months on hobbies and personal projects. I remember asking him if he gets bored during those 6 months not working and he said to me "I don't base my life enjoyment off of making someone else money". That advice has really stuck to me and its really cool to see the electronics projects he builds in those 6 months.

any link to projects ?

It was just stuff like building power supplies and little Tesla coils. Every few weeks I'd get sent cool videos like a lightbulb being wirelessly lit up by the coil.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#477

Post by hoaw »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #438
hoaw wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not unlikely, which is why I wrote somewhat vaguely. Ironically I don't have time to read your resources at the moment. My point is that there just isn't that much room for other things these days. So many things, from a $5 coffee to housing, is based on the idea that everyone is working all the time. You can of course quit working, pay the same rent and lock yourself in a room trying to forget the outside world unti…

I think I get what you're saying, now. Sounds like more of a critique of North American/protestant work ethic coupled with our acclimating to convenience. I think that's probably a whole other subject to be tackled. Aristotle's core point above would be along the lines of: Relaxation (in order to) -> Work (in order to) -> Leisure (the goal, for its own sake) Leisure and relaxation being entirely different activities,…

Right. I am saying that if you take time off you end up being at odds with much of society. You realize that many things, even leisure activities, now only exists in relation to work. And after not working for a while few of these things are exciting anymore.

So I am not saying it isn't a good idea. Just that it is hard from a practical perspective. Which is why younger people who take sabbaticals often end up in e.g. Asia.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#478

Post by phry »

chosenbreed37 wrote: post #219
unclebucknasty wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have access to “the top” through resourcefulness and risk taking You forgot generational wealth. In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. So, it's doubtful that poor people's problem is that they just don't take enough risks.

> In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. Interesting...I've always thought of the US as being more of a meritocracy than the UK and Europe in general. I mean that is what the American dream is all about right?

'Per Thomas Piketty roughly 60% of America's wealth is inherited, meaning most of America's riches are owned by people who didn't work for them.'

https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/1092536441819648000

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/AlvaredoGarbintiPiketty2015....

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#479

Post by dangus »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #290
CalRobert wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

To add alternate experience to the children of this post, I worked for a company w/ unlimited vacation, and while I took very little vacation, there was no pressure from outside to limit it. Other people tended to work less than I did and took vacation more or less in line with what they would have done elsewhere. I wouldn't take unlimited vacation as a sign of anything other than "we expect you to be reasonable and…

It also alleviates the company from ever having to pay out unused vacation time. That is a disadvantage for the employee, but with a tremendous upside.

I also have unlimited PTO and I definitely prefer it. No more worrying about hours, rollover limits, accumulation rate, how far I can go negative, etc. No more wading through vacation schedules wondering if the office is open on New Years Eve.

Same thing with free lunches - yeah, of course it keeps people in the office and possibly causes them to subconsciously work longer. But also...I get a free freaking lunch and I don't have to worry about it.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#480

Post by moorhosj »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #435
moorhosj wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==Whereas in the US, the people in northern Maine live in a completely different world than the people in Southern Florida.== And your contention is that Stockholm, Malmo, Kiruna, Haparanda and Skalstugan are all the same?

My contention is that median variability of cultural attributes between those cities is signifcantly less than median variability of cultural attributes in US cities.

That is a fair observation. To clarify, you think that makes it harder to find political solutions because people don't feel they are "in it together"?
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