Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#421

Post by equalarrow » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #243

habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

I'm beginning to think increasing minimum wage will help. You don't need to tax the rich, just make them pay their people better. But that's still at odds with two thing. 1) it will increase incentive for more automation - but that's already happening as fast as the engineers can do it. 2) it will increase the incentive to use undocumented workers who can be paid under the table below minimum wage. Before we can talk…

No, you need to enforce the immigration laws in this case. Increasing the 'incentive' to use illegal immigrants is increasing the incentive to break the law. Typical thinking I suppose. Don't go after the people that break the law, let them break it and create another law to penalize them. This makes no sense to me. And don't say "they're doing it anyway" - that's bullshit. Fine these businesses and arrest the owners for that.

There is no need to tax the rich more even tho this is the penalty du jour. This will do nothing to fix any of this. People need to stop taxing the rich and work to getting rich themselves (taboo here on HN of course).

Your flipping burgers job or grocery bagging job or ditch digging job should not be a career. Because of the fact that those are not careers firstly, and secondly, because they will be automated away. You need to use that as a stepping stone to something better. It is not easy to get rich - it is a long road. But it is one that you should use to better yourself so you can achieve.

There is no incentive with universal income. None with welfare. Sure, let the government provide a minimum safety net, but (as I have learned the hard way) your family and close friends are the ones that should be helping you out. Not the state. Minimum wage is a state imposed artificial penalty pushed on businesses. As a business owner, costs are my enemy and while I offer to provide fair wages for those I employ, having the state impose an artificial cost make business harder. If it continues to get harder, it cannot be maintained.

So, if your goal is to put businesses out of business (who employs you then?), then min wage and tax increases along with cost increases will keep doing that. I'm not talking about mega corps, I'm talking about real businesses. More people need to start their own businesses to see how clear cut all this is. There's a reason companies flee states like California - because the costs to run a business there along with the high taxes make it a difficult place to live. And that's the truth. Just ask anyone who has left..

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#422

Post by crowdpleaser » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #211

wincy wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere,…

if the safety net was too comfortable I doubt I’d have ever felt the need to climb out of it Americans have been conditioned into accepting a staggering amount of abuse and into perpetuating that abuse.

At least people can overcome abuse and thrive off of it. I don't know a single person who had an extremely cushy childhood who is 'on fire' for anything or striving for greatness.

You need adversity to be great. Not all adversity is abuse. The American dream is about overcoming and flourishing to the limits of your will power, taxing people who have succeeded to provide succor to people who don't care about themselves is corrosive to the national spirit. Come visit some time, I'll show you around.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#423

Post by magduf » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #307

lghh wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, I don't work 3x harder than most of the people I make 3x of. My wife is a teacher and I am in tech, I make 3x her salary. She works way more and spends more of both her physical and emotional labor on her job. I work hard and I do good work, but what she does is not even in the same stratosphere as what I do. I'm not innovating anything, I'm just writing decent code. She's finding new ways to help kids lear…

It's worth asking why your wife doesn't switch to your job, to make 3x the salary. Either a) she couldn't do it, in which case by extension it boils down to supply and demand, or b) she doesn't want to do it, because she gets a whole bunch of joy from the job which is invisibly priced into compensation (and which indirectly goes back to supply and demand.) I don't see the discrepancy as any kind of market failure.

I think there's a big problem with this whole comparison here. You're comparing a career which is almost entirely private-sector (programming) to one which is almost entirely public-sector (teaching). Teachers are mostly employed by local governments, after all, so that profession isn't subject to the market forces which affect private-sector jobs.

The reason teachers aren't paid well isn't because there isn't much demand for them, it's because the local governments choose to pay them poorly, and then they wonder why they can't find enough good teachers.

Companies that don't pay programmers handsomely will soon find themselves without programmers (or with really lousy ones), and then they'll go out of business. This doesn't happen with public schools.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#424

Post by crowdpleaser » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #250

wincy wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere,…

Perhaps you wouldn't have had the same opportunities without a degree in Europe but have you considered the possibility that had you been in Europe it also would have been significantly more affordable and easier to get a degree given your situation? Universal healthcare, for example, might have allowed your mental health issues to be addressed sooner. And even if they were addressed some people just need more time t…

I think about this a lot. If I were born in Europe, I would get a degree in mathematics and skate by doing easy work.

I was born American, I saw my chance for greatness, and I'm working on it. I'm currently a few years into my career - I've made a few hundred thousand for myself and at least a few million for my employers/society-writ-large, and I know that if I were European, I'd still be in school.

For me, the American system did a much better job of aligning my interests with society's interest.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#425

Post by magduf » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

athenot wrote: post #385

linkmotif wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching is a straw man. Teachers get paid poorly because (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make, and (2) it’s a government-based monopoly that prioritizes “benefits” and graft (tenure, etc) over salary

> (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make Americans care very much about education but the system we're in doesn't. Kids have no value in a market economy until they have purchase power (or influence on purchase power). In a highly inequal society that means very fancy private schools, for those who can pay. And neglected public schools for the rest. The outlook of…

>Americans care very much about education but the system we're in doesn't.

This is demonstrably false. If Americans cared about education, they would demand their local governments do a better job of providing it. But they don't. Those governments pay teachers poorly, which doesn't attract quality people to the profession, and the taxpayers just complain about their taxes being too high.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#426

Post by ZeroFries » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #408

ZeroFries wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the accounts grow if they weren't doing something that created wealth, i.e. generated value for the economy? They're re-invested in other companies, to be put to good use.

Generated value for whom? The size of amazon? To be put to good use figuring out more ways to eavesdrop information for advertising? They aren't going to pay their workers who piss in bottles any more if they beat earnings, although the shareholders might have some big ticket purchases in mind. It is still money removed from consumers pockets and used to inflate the company, and only very few people in the company be…

How does a company get bigger without providing value to their customers?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#427

Post by malvosenior » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #413

cableshaft wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectuals can be poor and/or make bad choices too. I know plenty of smart people who are struggling to make ends meet (me included, to a certain extent, and I make 2-3x more than a lot of these people). But you're right that there is a culture of anti-intellectualism amongst a certain segment of poor people.

But that means that most kids who grow up in that culture are going to absorb those same influences. It doesn't seem fair to then blame them for the society they came from.

You shouldn't blame them, but the exit from poverty is clearly marked STEM and it's really up to the individual to take it. Having come from this culture, the best advice I can give is that focusing on individual responsibility is most helpful. There's general a lot of self-pity and "us vs them" mentality when really the problem is more "us vs us". If you haven't heard of it, check out crab bucket mentality. It's very real and the only way I can see to escape it is to put all of your faith into yourself and your own plans.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#428

Post by moorhosj » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #396

moorhosj wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==everyone is the same ethnicity and culture== I think depends on how you define ethnicity and culture. Sweden foreign-born population - 17.0% [1] US foreign-born population - 13.7% [2] [1] https://nordic.businessinsider.com/swedens-foreign-born-popu... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-data/u-s-...

US white, non-Hispanic population: 61.3%.... Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+

==Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+==

Not only is this contention wrong [1], it is completely arbitrary. Ethnicity isn't just how you want to draw lines to prove some point. Sweden has multiple ethnicities within what you call "Swedish white, non-Hispanic". This is observed, most obviously, through different dialects and cultures. Swedes that border Norway are different than Swedes that border Finland.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#429

Post by kaffeemitsahne » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

Nimitz14 wrote: post #410

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welfare in the Netherlands is ~1200/month. If you live cheaply (e.g. in a 500/month room in a shared house) that leaves more than enough for a transatlantic plane ticket every now and then. Source (in Dutch): https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2018/12/19/uitke...

I cannot find the number you report on that website. Please elaborate on where you got it from. I'm 100% sure you are leaving out important additional details, like that one has to have been recently employed.

You can get WW (werkeloosheidswet - unemployment law) for 24 months, like you say you need a sufficient history of employment. This is based on 70% of the minimum (full-time) wage, i.e. 70% of 1615.80 = 1131 euros/month.

Minimum wage is on the top of the linked pdf (download link here [1]).

Sorry if I was unclear, just looking for some ballpark numbers for the sake of the argument.

[1] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/publicaties/2018/12/...

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#430

Post by linkmotif » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #363

kiliantics wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, poor because they are not smart. Because the US is a perfect meritocracy. This is ludicrously off the mark and shows how out of touch people really are about how the world works for others.

Having grown up poor I'd say it's not that poor people are not as smart, it's that they are extremely anti-intellectual. I tried my hardest to get family/friends/community into computers (or really any intellectual pursuit). Resistance was extreme to say the least. Reading a book is looked down upon. Computers are for "nerds". I used too many "five dollar words"... If you want a real view of the situation you have to…

It's remarkable this isn't the subject of discussion ever. I'm not saying this would lead to anything productive, but at the same time, it's at the absolute core of the problem.