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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#321

Post by kamarg »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #287
normal_man wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea that free-market capitalism drives innovation is not something you can take for granted at all. How many companies making copycat apps that serve no purpose or complete bullshit like Juicero get millions in funding?

You literally gave an example for why free-market capitalism supports innovation; e.g. the product was stupid and the market rejected it.

The market rejecting a product has nothing to do with innovation. It's people saying I can't afford this or I don't value this at the price you're selling it at, or even I don't like the politics of someone that works for you. But it says nothing about if a product is innovative or not.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#322

Post by MockObject »

kiliantics wrote: post #302
MockObject wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this wholesome content even getting downvoted?

Because it sounds like anti-socialist pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps propaganda. It's not wholesome because it's not how things work for most people. The commenter could be very lucky or (more likely) very blind to real privileges they benefited from in their story. But their story fits a narrative that allows people to feel comfortable with their wealth while poverty is rampant around them, so such people find…

That seems like an extreme reaction. I don't think you're supposed to downvote someone's lived experience just because it doesn't apply to everyone. (Those few personal stories that do apply to everyone are pretty boring, usually involving bodily functions.)

It would be nice if more people could experience such things. That makes the story good, not bad. It is something we want to maximize, not minimize.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#323

Post by mac01021 »

TACIXAT wrote: post #115
bearmcbearsly wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the entire article was about.

Really? I didn't see anything about about wealth distribution via taxes versus other means.

Right. The article was about the social structures that cause wealth disparity to come about in the first place.

Maybe you meant, though, that we should be discussing plans to replace those with better social structures.

That's fair, but I admit to having a hard time imagining any that are not ultimately equivalent to wealth redistribution.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#324

Post by CalRobert »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #248
CalRobert wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

> protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). I've worked at two places who had this policy and it was remarkable how many people just burned themselves out by NOT taking a single day of vacation. There was always pressure from management to NOT take vacation, then you add in pressure from your co-workers to continually work late, push to get projects done on time, all at the cost of…

I think it also exists to save money when it comes time to cash out PTO when somebody leaves.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#325

Post by dmode »

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #231
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

Per capita basis, I believe EU countries take on more immigrants than America

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#326

Post by arandr0x »

rock_hard wrote: post #227
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a hou…

I know HN loves politics but I made my original post in the spirit of seeing replies like yours where it's less about ascertaining which side is "best" and more speaking about your lived experience and things you liked and didn't. It's great that you've been there so long and are defending the values the US has because (I suppose) they match those that have always been yours.

I think that's exactly the discussion we should have re: this tech/non-tech divide. Whether what we want is to help our neighbors, or live near only people who can (and choose to) help themselves. And there's definitely people in both camps and you know where you are because you live through both, like you and I did, and get an uncomfortable or bleak feeling at some point, not because of watching election talk or economic lectures.

Also I'm actually Canadian so I don't know where the thread's obsession with communism and Sweden or wherever has come from. The poor people on the bus from my OP see the same sky you guys do ;-)

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#327

Post by CalRobert »

laurentl wrote: post #220
CalRobert wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

Good for you! Where in the EU? There is quite a bit of variation in work regulations and norms (e.g. minimum wage and salary variance) depending on the member states.

Ireland - which is a mixed bag in some senses (if nothing else, work culture in tech here is HEAVILY influenced by the US) but still far better than California. Also, I don't mean to toot my horn but I may start a company in a year or two and even though I wouldn't necessarily have picked Ireland in the first place, their comparatively welcoming immigration policy (they have working holiday visas!) means it's where I've built my life.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#328

Post by supermw »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #245
supermw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.

Most people didn't have the choice you did.

My choices were nothing special: Pay attention in school, do my homework, get good grades, pick a meaningful hobby, don't drink or do drugs, don't beat up other kids for fun, read books, work in a retail store, stay away from drama, get into a decent college and choose a good major, do internships, network, pick up recommendations, get interviews at tech companies, get tech job, start paying debts, save and invest money, move and get better tech job, save and invest more money, pay more debts, keep learning new skills, get even better tech job, pay off debt, save and invest even MORE money, get promotion, save and invest TONS of money... by now you can see compounding effects are kicking in and not much can stop me. All this from a poor boy born in Raleigh.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#329

Post by ummonk »

>But automation is changing the nature of work, flushing workers without a college degree out of productive industries, like manufacturing and high-tech services, and into tasks with meager wages and no prospect for advancement.

Meanwhile wages for construction continue to grow as the labor shortage intensifies. Something doesn't add up.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#330

Post by TeMPOraL »

abapologist wrote: post #312
lghh wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, I don't work 3x harder than most of the people I make 3x of. My wife is a teacher and I am in tech, I make 3x her salary. She works way more and spends more of both her physical and emotional labor on her job. I work hard and I do good work, but what she does is not even in the same stratosphere as what I do. I'm not innovating anything, I'm just writing decent code. She's finding new ways to help kids lear…

Pay isn’t connected to effort of labor though.

It also isn't connected to the value the job brings to society, or even to the long-term impact on the market economy.
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