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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#221

Post by xamuel »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #150
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our productivity has indeed grown immensely, but, for good or for bad, instead of making things cheaper we're directing all our free resources to making them better. Instead of cheaper cars we're making safer cars, instead of cheaper houses we're building bigger houses, and so on.

A very large percentage of free resources are being hoarded in wealth and cash piles, would you actually claim a company like Apple is directing all of it's free resources to making better products? Why the stock buybacks and 200 billion pile?

It's a mistake to think of money as resources--as if money is something we dig out of the ground and need in order to make our machines run. No-one eats cash. Whatever could be done if Apple spent its cash, could be done if Apple didn't spend its cash. Money's only purpose is to incentivize people to do things, so you're basically asking Apple to play king and start directing society. I'd prefer they just sit on their money rather than that!

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#222

Post by habosa »

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all.

Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides.

We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#223

Post by jeffreyrogers »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

> We replace people with robots and retain the same output

That's not how manufacturing works. Most manufacturing still requires human input because robots aren't very flexible. You have to build an entire line around a robot which means you adapt slowly to changes in the market.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#224

Post by normal_man »

rland wrote: post #128
baroffoos wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $150 billion sitting in bezos bank account does very little for everyone. If it was distributed among the population of America, most of it would be spent very quickly and there would be huge benefits for everyone. Preventing hoarding would do a lot of good for society.

On the contrary. Most of that money is the capital that makes up Amazon and its subsidiaries, which has consistently grown faster (created more wealth/benefit) than almost any other entity in our society. That's your neoliberal take. Personally, I'm a little dubious that wealth created is 1:1 with social benefit created. But to say that his bank account benefits nobody would be a misrepresentation.

> (created more wealth/benefit)

For whom?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#225

Post by laurentl »

aantix wrote: post #161
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

Without incentives, there is no innovation. And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing.

This is a bit of a strawman argument: the parent post does not claim that everyone should have the same share of the pie, but that one should get a minimal share rather than nothing.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#226

Post by barry-cotter »

pnutjam wrote: post #140
barry-cotter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Higher wages with shorter work hours would be a great step in the right direction. I believe Keynes even suggested it. No he didn’t. He suggested we’d have chosen to work fewer hours and have more leisure because we could afford both greater consumption and greater leisure than were possible when he wrote. Higher wages than now, with shorter work hours than now is possible only with growth in economic productivity…

The parent's point was we have made those strides in productivity, but the wages were denied us.

Measured in 1960 US$ the UK’s GDP per capita was 1181[1]. In 2016 US$ U.K. GDP per capita was 40,341[2]. Even if we assume the 2016 dollar is worth half as much as the 1960 one because of inflation the average U.K. resident is 15 times better off. If people wanted to live in 1960s houses with what people in the 1960s would have considered a lavish standard of living they could do it easily by working half the year, or having a part time job. The 1960s were already a hell of a lot better than 1930, when the essay was written.

If you want to live in the paradise Keynes described you can. That’s what the financial independence, retire early subculture is about[3]. Work for 20 years and retire instead of 40 or 50. Or those people who contract half the year and spend half of it in Thailand. If we wanted to take more of our compensation in leisure we absolutely could. People choose not to. They need to keep up with the Jones.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(P...

[2]https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

[3]http://www.financialindependenceretireearly.com/

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#227

Post by rock_hard »

arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money!

But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit.

I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a house a couple years ago. I am gonna retire at 50.

I hated living in Europe, the socialism makes people dead on the inside and there is no upward mobility for people that weren’t born into the right circumstances with the right degree’s and relationships :(

America has been excellent to me and I have done my best to do my part of the deal!

It’s not for everyone of course, there is some nice things about Europe and their socialism too...but overall I hated it simple because of what it does to people’s spirits.

America sure has its own problems...but IMO Europe is off much worse

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#228

Post by 52-6F-62 »

hoaw wrote: post #157
52-6F-62 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds pretty pleasurable. IIRC that second six months is the true classical definition of a life of leisure.

I have done similar things and it generally isn't. Or it is getting very hard to make it so. Western society has become much more hierarchical in recent years. It is harder and harder to find any "cracks in system" on a fundamental level. Even if you would consider leisure to be neutral, and not in need of meaning, most people aren't even starting from a neutral point. So if you do something else you end up being und…

I think you misunderstand what I mean by classical definition of leisure.

This kind of runs through it:

https://www.academia.edu/17614838/Aristotle_Leisure_and_the_...

or

https://blogs.harvard.edu/nobleleisure/aristotle-on-work-vs-...

Bonus material (wider in scope, though):

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.html

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#229

Post by maxxxxx »

chosenbreed37 wrote: post #219
unclebucknasty wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have access to “the top” through resourcefulness and risk taking You forgot generational wealth. In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. So, it's doubtful that poor people's problem is that they just don't take enough risks.

> In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. Interesting...I've always thought of the US as being more of a meritocracy than the UK and Europe in general. I mean that is what the American dream is all about right?

It certainly isn’t. The pressure to get to a good school starts very early and most of the time a good school is equivalent to having money.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#230

Post by cmsonger »

supermw wrote: post #188
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.

Someone else does not have to do badly for you to do better.
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