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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#141

Post by jlgosse »

dnbgfher wrote: post #78
toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

I don't see how this tracks. Particularly in relation to many of the jobs going away, productivity isn't inversely related to hours worked. People working 6 hours instead of 8 will get three quarters as much done. How would their wages go up? If you are proposing the government cover the difference, then you're effectively proposing a bastardized version of UBI with an employment requirement, and payout that is propo…

I think the argument is that most people are truly only attaining maximum productivity for 5-6 hours in a day, so why are they even there for the extra 2-3? If you make $100/hr for 8 hours but are only productive for 5 of those hours, your employer is really paying you $160/hr. Why are we wasting employees time and employers money?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#142

Post by pnutjam »

twblalock wrote: post #66
nicklaf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or are you suggesting we ban working? Well, with a sufficiently progressive tax, you might choose to stop volunteering your time for what will be diminishing returns in income.

> Well, with a sufficiently progressive tax, you might choose to stop volunteering your time for what will be diminishing returns in income. A solution that incentivizes successful people to hold themselves back from fulfilling their potential is going to make society poorer overall. If you want to redistribute wealth, you should incentivize the creation of wealth so you have enough to move around.

You are assuming all work is paid work. The majority of people would find very productive things to do, and yes, higher income should be taxed more.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#143

Post by anoncoward111 »

pnutjam wrote: post #140
barry-cotter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Higher wages with shorter work hours would be a great step in the right direction. I believe Keynes even suggested it. No he didn’t. He suggested we’d have chosen to work fewer hours and have more leisure because we could afford both greater consumption and greater leisure than were possible when he wrote. Higher wages than now, with shorter work hours than now is possible only with growth in economic productivity…

The parent's point was we have made those strides in productivity, but the wages were denied us.

We have made those strides in productivity and they all went to rent seeking and taxation/regulation of small businesses and personal conduct (see also $150 red light cameras and $350,000 school admin salaries)

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#144

Post by ataturk »

baroffoos wrote: post #118
gumby wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe in Universal Basic Income though, we live in a society and it is our duty to contribute to that society. There are plenty of things people do that are valuable to society yet are not captured in the GDP, and are thus not highly valued by contemporary society. They range from visiting and looking after elder parents, playing with your children, writing poetry etc. Then there are undervalued activitie…

I knew a guy who worked 6 months a year doing contract work and then spent the other 6 months on hobbies and personal projects. I remember asking him if he gets bored during those 6 months not working and he said to me "I don't base my life enjoyment off of making someone else money". That advice has really stuck to me and its really cool to see the electronics projects he builds in those 6 months.

Seems like everyone "knows a guy" that does that but when I attempted the same thing it failed miserably. I took a paltry three months off and then every recruiter and hiring manager was immediately suspicious of me when I started going on interviews again. They all suspected I was in jail or something. Meanwhile, I literally just took three months to catch up on my life.

In my current role, I could probably work 3 days a week and meet my same obligations. Our scrum master could be fired and nobody would even notice.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#145

Post by plutonorm »

xiphias2 wrote: post #113
whateveracct wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to be special to do STEM work, but it's possible the attitude that you do is keeping us from learning how to better train the average person in it.

Average person with less intelligence is capable of doing the same thinking, just slower. I believe that the problem is that STEM classes aren't separated by the speed of thinking. Also easier for a person to accept that he/she just doesn't get math, instead of the fact that he/she is thinking slower than other people. I found myself thinking slower as I get older (and having more health problems), but so far I was a…

I'm pretty sure this whole intelligence is merely thinking faster idea is non sense. From my own personal experience, I think quite slowly, I'm bad at mental arithmetic, but I have a very high IQ. Look at IQ tests, our best measure for intelligence: getting the questions right is not about speed, it's about insight. The harder questions do not require more time, it is not simply a matter of enumerating through the different options. One has to "see" the patterns and then apply the rules.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#146

Post by chooseaname »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #7
jedberg wrote: post #2

There are two solutions: Part one, a more educated populace. Education will help those that can work in the "good jobs" get the good jobs. Part two, tax policy. Wealth needs to be redistributed so that there are masses to buy the products that the wealthy are creating. Edit: I just watched this post go up to 10 points, down to 3 and then back to 5. Clearly this is controversial. I find it interesting that wealth redi…

What if the jobs require higher IQs than 85? Suddenly we have 15% of the population entirely unemployable? Wealth redistribution is a choice of ethics. What if we start to create better technologies that augment the economic usefulness of the lowest IQ people?

AR and VR. So many people love to talk about an augmented world, well, this would be the perfect place for it. You would use AR/VR to help lower IQ people be more productive and still be able to earn themselves a decent wage.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#147

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

Our productivity has indeed grown immensely, but, for good or for bad, instead of making things cheaper we're directing all our free resources to making them better.

Instead of cheaper cars we're making safer cars, instead of cheaper houses we're building bigger houses, and so on.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#148

Post by 0x445442 »

jedberg wrote: post #2

There are two solutions: Part one, a more educated populace. Education will help those that can work in the "good jobs" get the good jobs. Part two, tax policy. Wealth needs to be redistributed so that there are masses to buy the products that the wealthy are creating. Edit: I just watched this post go up to 10 points, down to 3 and then back to 5. Clearly this is controversial. I find it interesting that wealth redi…

>> Is it really just "I worked hard for it why should I give it away"

No it's more "I worked hard for it why should it be taken from me by force or fiat". I've found most folks who are well off (not living hand to mouth) are willing, and do give to charity. It's when some other group of people start demanding this behavior through governmental force when attitudes change.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#149

Post by tokyodude »

TomMckenny wrote: post #99
toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

Higher wages with shorter work hours would be a great step in the right direction. I believe Keynes even suggested it. But, a post-scarcity society, where labor is nearly valueless, still requires everyone have their needs met regardless of what they "own". But in that future as through all the past, most people are born owning little more than their labor. So a post-scarcity society does not just require the technol…

Is there really such a thing as a post-scarcity society? Certain things will always be scarce. Beachfront real estate. Penthouses. Apartments next to a park or downtown. Sure we can get arguably get to a point where energy, food, and maybe small to medium sized items are free but if Jill Smith wants 400 cars where is she going to put them? Even if we all beam into cyberspace there will not be unlimited storage nor unlimited computation. There will still need to be a way to either get more from the powers that be for special needs or it will be traded leading back to have and have-nots.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#150

Post by Dumblydorr »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #147
toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

Our productivity has indeed grown immensely, but, for good or for bad, instead of making things cheaper we're directing all our free resources to making them better. Instead of cheaper cars we're making safer cars, instead of cheaper houses we're building bigger houses, and so on.

A very large percentage of free resources are being hoarded in wealth and cash piles, would you actually claim a company like Apple is directing all of it's free resources to making better products? Why the stock buybacks and 200 billion pile?
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