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If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

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Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#41
post #26
post #13

The other point that there are millions of boring crud apps written out there in govt/contractor land. We dont need to see these as open source, its not as if there are lots of devs that love fixing crappy crud apps in their spare time.

Your argument against is that we might get bored reading the open source code?

While it is bad way to put it, but GP comments does make a little sense. All I can think of government software is CRUD apps or research projects. The source of later is released on case by case basis(tor, selinux on one hand, exploits such as stuxnet on the other) and any ruling won't help much there.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#42

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

Man it would be pretty amazing to be able to submit a Pull Request to the IRS.

Matt Cutts if you're reading this please help!

On another note, I'm not sure I agree on the electrical grid or traffic controls being open sourced ... could imagine some nefarious things happening as a result of that

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#43
Alot of the conversation I have seen so far has been US-centric. That's fair, given that this was posted during US business hours, but for the US I don't really think this discussion applies as much.

Works created by the United States Government are not covered by copyright in the US, effectively making them public domain _in the US_. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/105

"But—", you say, "—the code the NSA is publishing has a license attached!" Indeed, that confused me too, until I found the answer at https://www.cendi.gov/publications/FAQ_Copyright_30jan18.htm...:

>…copyright exclusion for works of the U.S. Government is not intended to have any impact on protection of these works abroad (S. REP. NO. 473, 94th Cong., 2d Sess. 56 (1976)). Therefore, the U.S. Government may obtain protection in other countries depending on the treatment of government works by the national copyright law of the particular country. Copyright is sometimes asserted by U.S. Government agencies outside the United States.

So, Public Domain within the US, and Copywritten (but OSS-licensed) outside of the US.

My understanding is that copyright in EU countries is much more complicated. For example, apparently the view of the Eiffel Tower at night is copyrighted. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M16CGK1T9MM

As for anything Classified in the US, there are laws controlling distribution. So, take something GPL-licensed: If you take, use, and modify the software, you are not required to provide the code unless you distribute the product to others.

See the question "Since U.S. Government works are not protected by copyright in the U.S., are all U.S. Government works publicly available without restriction in the U.S.?" from https://www.cendi.gov/publications/FAQ_Copyright_30jan18.htm... (it's pretty long, and has a _lot_ of references, so I'm not reproducing it here)

Of course, you may argue that, if a hacking tool is pushed to a remote system, and that hacking tool was made using GPL-licensed code, then the source should be distributed with the hacking tool. Also, note I said GPL, _not_ AGPL. For both of those cases, I don't know if the laws governing Classified material trump those governing Copyright (I'd bet they do), and what International law has to say.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#44
post #18
post #14

Would this not imply that if "my" government funded some software that "your" government would be free to take it? I'm not sure I'm keen on subsidizing "your" government all that much. What would stop the people of/under "your" government from freeloading off the people of/under "my" government?

Is it your position that utilizing open source software is freeloading?

I contribute, I utilize and I appreciate open source and the community of dedicated contributors. Open source software is great and "YES" frankly the vast vast majoring of those involved in the use of open source software are freeloaders. We (yes I include myself) typically sow way less than we reap.

This argument though is not about the merits of open source software but about the use of public funds. "If my taxes helped pay for software, should result necessarily be public source code."

My opinion is absolutely not.

If my taxes as a citizen of country "A" paid for the development of some piece of software then I do not have the slightest reservation that the citizens of country "B" have no kind of moral, ethical, or legal right to it.

If the tax payers, government representatives, and authors agree and choose to release their results and products under some open source agreement then that is up to them.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#45
post #35

The positive and optimistic side of this is well-documented. The darker side is that making all publicly-funded software public would also mean making all weapons software public. That could have disastrous consequences.

Perhaps we could just stop making weapons software? I mean, someone needs to go first. When I look at wars throughout the world, a huge number of them are fought with US weapons, and we don't actually have a good track record of supporting peaceful people. I don't think that we'll get there until we stop dumping weapons on the world for profit.

Of course this would be great, we'd all like this to happen. But your perspective is dangerously shallow and juvenile, the real world just straight up doesn't work this way.

If you believe in this enough, you're better off leaving the U.S. IMHO.

If you disagree, I recommend visiting a country on the verge of complete collapse. Do that, then think about how good we have it, think about how many people want to take that way of life away at all costs. Part of being an adult is striking a balance between your ideals, a comfortable life and letting one or the other take over.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#46

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

1. https://www.healthcare.gov/developers/

2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government.

5. Probably a good idea.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#47
post #5

I am an open source advocate, but I don't really agree here. Should the IRS, NSA, CIA, and FBI code all be open source? Here are some cases where closed source software, with some security by obscurity could be helpful. Another example would be some software around designing nuclear systems. But as an example maybe a software funded by the national weather service to run simulations, that aught to be open source (per…

> Should the IRS, NSA, CIA, and FBI code all be open source?

No, works made by or under hire for the federal government should be public domain, from a copyright standpoint, not exclusively owned but licensed under an open source license.

But on the other hand, I think your real question has nothing to do with ownership or licensing, but whether or not they should be publicly disclosed. In many cases the answer is “no”, but lots of government work that is in the public domain from a copyright perspective is also not subject to unrestricted publicly disclosure (and may also be classified.)

But arguably the licensing can work the same way as disclosure; presumptively, all government software should be open source, just as presumptively all government records are publicly disclosable; there may be limited defined exceptions for the former as there are for the latter, and decisions to treat software as within an exception should be reviewable by courts just as witholding material from FOIA disclosure is.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#48

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

Man it would be pretty amazing to be able to submit a Pull Request to the IRS. Matt Cutts if you're reading this please help! On another note, I'm not sure I agree on the electrical grid or traffic controls being open sourced ... could imagine some nefarious things happening as a result of that

[deleted]

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#49

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

Man it would be pretty amazing to be able to submit a Pull Request to the IRS. Matt Cutts if you're reading this please help! On another note, I'm not sure I agree on the electrical grid or traffic controls being open sourced ... could imagine some nefarious things happening as a result of that

> On another note, I'm not sure I agree on the electrical grid or traffic controls being open sourced ... could imagine some nefarious things happening as a result of that

Any more nefarious things that can be done with your Linux OS server talking to your Open Source Chromium / Firefox web browser?

Open Source doesn't necessarily mean less secure.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#50
At the very least publically funded code should be open between government departments. There seems to be a lot of internally developed work that is unnecessarily replicated or lost just due to having no obligation or available resources to share or collaborate. Maybe there needs to be some system in place to have some sort of internal NDA or need to know check, but this seems like a good first step.
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