Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#1

Post by throwaway_boy » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 8:53 PM UTC

I've been a software engineer for over a decade, and worked at huge companies and little startups. I know this probably sounds insane, but over that entire time, I only worked on one team/project where there was a notion of "tech lead", that is to say a technical individual contributor who was responsible for decomposing a project, overseeing the more junior engineers in its implementation, but was not a manager who managed those engineers. And that tech lead was me. Every other team/company I've ever worked at, I've basically been in a team scenario, where everyone worked in their own silos. I've always owned entire subsystems (even as a total newbie, painful as it was), never with another engineer over me, never with another engineer under me. I've had the words "Senior Developer" on my resume for almost 8 years now, over half my career.

I don't want to be a manager. But it seems like something's missing, that I don't have any "project leadership" experience on my resume (save that one time, which was a success I might add.) I'm confused about what the next step for me is supposed to be, and how to get there. It seems like the things above me on the career ladder (architect, principal, CTO, what have you) are not attainable because of this absence of leadership experience. I mean, is this something that even exists or am I just imagining it? I see peers (coworkers who eventually moved on to other places) who make these strange leaps from Sr. Engineer to Director or CTO and I don't understand how they did it. Should I just try applying to a higher-up position sometime?

I'm open to any and all career advice. This really isn't about money or responsibility, it's just about ensuring that I'm not stalling out somewhere in my professional growth. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm concerned about my long-term trajectory.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#2

Post by gauthr » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:03 PM UTC

If you want to get leadership experience, you will need to take on a role that requires it. To get that role, you will have to ask for it. The minimum requirement for leadership is the ability to get things that you want.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#3

Post by webwright » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:13 PM UTC

You don't want to be a manager, but you want to move up from Senior Developer? Directors and CTOs generally are (largely) managers. A big part of their job is sales (selling product vision to the engineering team, selling engineering realities to executives, selling jobs to prospective hires, etc). Do you want that role?

The organizational pyramid is just that. Not every senior dev moves up (or should move up if happiness is a priority). You shouldn't look to your peers to tell you what's next for your career. How do you want to spend your time at work compared to how you're spending it now? Do you want harder technical problems? More product design work? Something else? You've already expressed that you don't want to manage folks, which closes off a lot of paths.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#4

Post by apike » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:15 PM UTC

In an organization that doesn't have a defined career path for engineers (which is to say, most organizations), you need to take responsibility for yourself if you want it. If you're on a team of engineers and nobody is leading, then step up.

Help newer engineers learn skills, help interview people, help run meetings, and instigate new projects. Cook up a new product or feature, and champion it. If it goes well, you'll be the de-facto tech lead.

Of course, you might just be at a very flat organization where nobody reports to an engineer. In many companies there is no formal idea of a tech lead - you report to somebody who used to be an engineer, but is now a manager.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#5

Post by mikeryan » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:15 PM UTC

So there's a slight cognitive dissonance here. Outside of an architect role - the only real way up is taking on more management tasks.

A lot of larger companies are seeing this as an issue so they are adding gradients to what a SSE is (SSE 1, SSE 2 etc) but really the answer is you're going to have to move up via a team leadership role and this means more management and less engineering.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#6

Post by zachster » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:20 PM UTC

I've always thought there should be no cap on either salary, or glamour for advancing developers. We've all seen how a single person can drive the productivity of an entire organization. The career path promoting great developers into managers (and eventually CTOs) tends to take people out of something they're great at and put them into something they might not be so good at.

On the flip side, the best technical managers I've worked with were not very technical at all.

I did take the route of advancing into a CTO position. There were parts of it I really enjoyed, and parts of it I dreaded. Those overlapped predictably with the parts I was bad at...

I would do it again, for the right project. But with a much clearer understanding of which responsibilities I will take for myself, and what I which I will delegate.

My advice to you would be to focus on the parts of your job you love, and make sure you're getting the credit and rewards you deserve. If that means you're a Senior Developer for the next ten years, it should also mean you're getting profit sharing, an office (if you want one) and a recognized position as a driver of the company's future.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#7

Post by locopati » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:22 PM UTC

Even in a team where there is no architect or tech lead, there's room for leadership. What parts of the process don't flow smoothly? How well is information shared within the team and to other groups that you work with? Who makes decisions about the planning and organization of dev projects? Who brings new hires up-to-speed and mentors them? There are lots of places where you can take on more than just dev work and you never know where that can lead.

Mind you, I don't see anything wrong with being a Senior Dev if that's what you're happy doing. In general, I think there's value in an experienced developer who enjoys their work, can articulate technical concerns to the non-technical, mentor new tech hires, and carry some institutional memory.

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#8

Post by abyssknight » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:27 PM UTC

Where I work there is a career path for technical people, but it tops out at the "Senior Staff" level. Now, as far as the role goes, you can be an individual contributor up to a point before becoming a "manager". You can lead a team from a technical standpoint without being a "manager". Those are what we call Technical Leads, Software Architects, and Chief Engineers.

My suggestion would be to ask (or even take) on a leadership role. Fake it til you make it, and put the results in your annual performance review. Write it up really well, and make sure you show results and not just state what you did. Show that your leadership adds value.

You do not need a formal leadership role to do this.

Mentoring is a quick way to put a notch in your leadership role, especially in your position and level of expertise. Share best practices with some junior engineers, and help them learn, grow.

You can also take on tasks outside of the office to build a proof of concept or the like that saves the company money or adds value. I have a mentor who became a senior manager after developing what became our enterprise email infrastructure during off hours with a small team of colleagues. He's now a CIO of a large part sector of the company.

A third idea, and we love this one where I work, is community leadership. Whether its helping out at a local non-profit, or spearheading a one time event for a holiday food bank, these are great opportunities to demonstrate leadership. (They're also a good idea in general, and great karma!)

That said, I am right there with you. I spent 4 years working in software development outside my current company, another 2 years at the company, and just now entered a leadership development program. There is a tremendous amount of soft skill development involved in the program I am in, and it really does help (even if it frustrates me at times).

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#9

Post by wlievens » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:34 PM UTC

zachster wrote: post #6

I've always thought there should be no cap on either salary, or glamour for advancing developers. We've all seen how a single person can drive the productivity of an entire organization. The career path promoting great developers into managers (and eventually CTOs) tends to take people out of something they're great at and put them into something they might not be so good at. On the flip side, the best technical mana…

> The career path promoting great developers into managers (and eventually CTOs) tends to take people out of something they're great at and put them into something they might not be so good at.

Peter's Principle. The more professional experience you get, the more you realize it's not a joke :-)

Re: Ask HN: How do I crawl out of the "Senior Engineer" hole?

#10

Post by throwaway_boy » Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 9:36 PM UTC

webwright wrote: post #3

You don't want to be a manager, but you want to move up from Senior Developer? Directors and CTOs generally are (largely) managers. A big part of their job is sales (selling product vision to the engineering team, selling engineering realities to executives, selling jobs to prospective hires, etc). Do you want that role? The organizational pyramid is just that. Not every senior dev moves up (or should move up if happ…

In my mind a manager is not necessarily a leader or the leader. And certainly not a technical leader. Agreed though that a director/CTO is more of a management position, but I've seen coding CTO's, especially in the startup world.

I don't know what I want career-wise, vertically speaking, and that would be proprietary to every employer anyway. What I'm getting at is that I feel like I should be able to contribute more at this point, most simply expressed as helping the team and company make better technical decisions. How do I leverage myself better?

I'm kind of at this point where I feel like I've maxed out whatever my job title is now (NOT just speaking about my current employer - just speaking about my career in general), and feeling bored and stagnant. I don't really know where I want to go, because I'm not sure where I CAN go. I know there's a path to management which I've turned down repeatedly (I'm not interested in managing people, in having one on ones, as operating as an extension of HR in ranking employees, etc). And I see people who have made a quantum leap somehow to something well beyond a Sr. Engineer - say, Architect (kind of an out-moded term in my mind), or "Principal" which is a kind of nebulous guru-like position. Is there a third choice beyond just staying in place?

It's just really nagging me to feel like I'm not growing. I've done so many things - desktop applications, web, e-commerce, mobile, client, server, frontend, backend, enterprise, yada yada. I've run out of room to grow in that dimension, because I've been around the block and back.