Things that are more inequitable than road pricing • Hacker News Board

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#241

Post by jplayer01 » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

hedora wrote: post #70

jonstewart wrote: post #47

In Northern Virginia outside DC, I-66 had been subject to directional rush hour restrictions on single occupancy vehicles. It was illegal to drive a car with just yourself for a few hours every weekday and you risked a ticket if you were caught. People put blow up dolls in their passenger seats. Last year they rolled out automatic congestion pricing for SOVs. All the news stories were about how the toll could hit a r…

> Commuters have effectively time-shifted, alleviating and smoothing congestion. It has been so effective that the length of I-66 subject to this treatment will be extended. Also, has anyone computed the cost of the economic externalities here? Time shifting ones commute either has severe financial repercussions for the employer (lost productivity) or the employees (a decrease in effective wages). I suspect those num…

As we've seen repeatedly in the past decades, increasing potential throughput only leads to increased car use to fill the unused throughput, and you'll rapidly reach the exact same situation as before. Add to that, whatever throughput you add, it will be bottlenecked by the time you reach the next city. Urban areas don't have room for more streets.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#242

Post by masonic » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

nihonde wrote: post #126

treis wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I live in lower Manhattan. My feeling is that every vehicle other than delivery trucks should be banned from the city. How do you expect to get your plumbing fixed?

Expand my original post from “delivery trucks” to “small trucks/vans on demonstrable business”. Also, other than for major construction, no more semi-trucks in the city. And electric buses ASAP. They’re the loudest and dirtiest vehicles out here. And definitely no more tour buses. That would make this city soar in terms of places people want to live and visit.

No ambulances, either. Or law enforcement. Or fire trucks.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#243

Post by masonic » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 10:39 AM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #224

briandear wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When every subway stop has elevators, then we cannot talk. Until then, try transporting kids or groceries using the subway. When the sidewalks are cleared of construction scaffolding, bike share racks blocking sidewalks or crazy grown adults dressing like Spider-Man, or psychotic homeless harassing people, then maybe we can talk. As far as climate change; if NYC went to zero CO2, it wouldn’t make a single bit of diff…

try transporting kids or groceries using the subway. When I lived in an area where I could commute by subway, I had a full service grocery store and several smaller specialty markets (a produce market, a butcher and a bakery) on my way home (well I had to get out one stop early to pass the butcher). I see plenty of parents with kids on the subway -- though none of them have the full-size strollers you see coming out…

  Though now I just buy groceries online and have them delivered

... which requires more road use than people stopping by the store on the way home. (Round trip vs. one way)

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#244

Post by masonic » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #210

chroma wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people are screaming at you or smoking meth on the bus, that’s indicative of broader social problems which aren’t really solved by changing the transportation system. Knowing the proximate cause doesn't help me avoid crazy people on public transportation. The problem of crazy people in the bay area won't be fixed any time soon, so it's still in my best interests to avoid public transportation. Also, it's not cle…

> I don't believe you You don’t believe that I travel by bus/subway/etc. and don’t feel unsafe? There are people of all ages, ethnic groups, social classes, occupations, etc. riding transit throughout the Bay Area every day: foreign tourists; nannies with strollers; pensioners buying groceries; businesspeople commuting; high school students; sports fans; families taking luggage to the airport; ..... There are certain…

  and the occasional mugging

There were three BART homicides in five days last July.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#245

Post by masonic » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #94

zdragnar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was approached twice on the same day at a cub foods once by people offering to buy my groceries with their food stamps in exchange for a lesser amount of cash. I still think the program is valuable, but damn it hurts to see it be abused (especially since one of the guys had his little kid with him). A discount card or whatever that works on the spot is practically guaranteed to be abused as an easy money maker for…

I had a college roommate who was on food stamps as a kid. He related the story that his mom used to buy additional discounted food stamps from drunks in order to extend her family’s food budget. Sometimes you can actually get a righteous result from a bad system.

If you consider enabling an addiction to be "righteous".

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#246

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 12:42 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #122

nihonde wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in lower Manhattan. My feeling is that every vehicle other than delivery trucks should be banned from the city. There is no compelling reason for anyone to drive in Manhattan. If people are commuting into Manhattan, they should take public transit to and from parking lots in Brooklyn/Queens/New Jersey. You will never convince me that there are low income workers who need to drive in the city as an essential pa…

Trades people can have legitimate reasons to need vehicles. Imagine your in charge of, say, taking care of a large planter. You need to bring with you: - Half a pickup truck of new plants - A few bags of fresh soil - A few shovels, buckets, a hose, and other similar tools They key is really just that vehicles are necessary to transport large quantities of stuff , regardless of whether or not it's a delivery vehicle.…

Yeah, but that's still delivery of a sort, isn't it? GP says only delivery should be allowed. Cars that are only transporting a person and nothing else are unnecessary; that person can be transported by subway instead. Only transporting goods really requires a car.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#247

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 12:44 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #157

gpm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commercial is the wrong qualifier for two reasons. The first is that you're going to have investment banks declaring their employees cars as commercial. The second is that you don't have to be a business to take a job taking care of a planter (or whatever). You probably are, but it's not required. I agree with the principal that "nobody needs to commute in a personal vehicle", but I find it hard to codify it into a r…

This is literally the point of congestion pricing. If you really need to drive around in lower Manhattan once in a while (e.g. you are doing a big run to Home Depot), you pay the $5 fee. Unless you are truly destitute, it's not that bad to pay a couple times a year. The price system isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn efficient at controlling quantity demanded.

For most cities $5 is not remotely enough to make a difference. People pay that per hour of parking. Make it $20 and you might make a dent.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#248

Post by zdragnar » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 1:45 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #94

zdragnar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was approached twice on the same day at a cub foods once by people offering to buy my groceries with their food stamps in exchange for a lesser amount of cash. I still think the program is valuable, but damn it hurts to see it be abused (especially since one of the guys had his little kid with him). A discount card or whatever that works on the spot is practically guaranteed to be abused as an easy money maker for…

I had a college roommate who was on food stamps as a kid. He related the story that his mom used to buy additional discounted food stamps from drunks in order to extend her family’s food budget. Sometimes you can actually get a righteous result from a bad system.

If it were only the drunks, then I wouldn't mind (no getting around self destructive behavior). Those drunks might have had families that depended on those food stamps, and that definitely crosses the line in my mind away from righteous in any sense of the word.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#249

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #70

jonstewart wrote: post #47

In Northern Virginia outside DC, I-66 had been subject to directional rush hour restrictions on single occupancy vehicles. It was illegal to drive a car with just yourself for a few hours every weekday and you risked a ticket if you were caught. People put blow up dolls in their passenger seats. Last year they rolled out automatic congestion pricing for SOVs. All the news stories were about how the toll could hit a r…

> Commuters have effectively time-shifted, alleviating and smoothing congestion. It has been so effective that the length of I-66 subject to this treatment will be extended. Also, has anyone computed the cost of the economic externalities here? Time shifting ones commute either has severe financial repercussions for the employer (lost productivity) or the employees (a decrease in effective wages). I suspect those num…

  > Time shifting ones commute either has severe financial repercussions for the
  > employer (lost productivity) or the employees (a decrease in effective wages).

What do you mean repercussions? Less traffic jams means spending less time stuck in traffic. Traffic jams cost the economy a lot of money. Time-shifting just means people start and end their work day earlier or later than the average.

As for widening roads, that's what's been the Dutch solution to traffic congestion for over 30 years now (congestion pricing is a major taboo with the largest government party), and traffic jams are worse than ever. Traffic seems to always grow to fill the available space and then some, unless you give it a reason not to.

That congestion pricing will reduce CO2 emissions is an added bonus, but not really the reason why it's considered necessary.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#250

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 04, 2019, 1:56 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #133

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting rid of most of the cars and putting people on trains does wonders for peak throughput. Getting people on trains by forcing them out of cars can't actually do that. If you make it more expensive/inconvenient/impossible to drive, at most the same number of people will take the train. In practice fewer will, because some of them will find jobs somewhere else or do their shopping somewhere else etc. So the comb…

Riding the train, subway, trolley, or bus and walking a couple blocks at each end is a heck of a lot “better” than sitting in traffic or driving 20 times around the block hunting for a parking space. Even moderately dense urban areas are inherently poor places for personal automobiles, whose infrastructure wastes tremendous amounts of space. The more neighborhoods are optimized for human-scale activity and pedestrian…

  > Life in a place where all or nearly all trips can be made without needing to drive a car
  > is very pleasant, especially for anyone who isn’t an able-bodied high-income adult.

But also if you are an able-bodied adult. I live in Amsterdam and try to get work at bicycle-distance. (I currently travel by train because winter and I've fallen out of the habit due to the longer commute for a previous project, but I intend to pick up cycling again when weather gets better.)