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Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

nytimes.com

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Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#101

Post by moorhosj »

iguy wrote: post #85
moorhosj wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==By American categories, India is 100% asian, and almost every sub-saharan country is 100% black. Of course local definitions vary.== But the claim was about "ethnicities", not races. People frequently refer to their ethnicity as Irish, Sicilian, Catalan, etc. Rarely have I heard someone say their ethnicity is white. ==The energy expended is a poor measure of the size of the problem.== Who gets to be the judge of th…

I'm not defending that the US is the "most ethnically diverse", I think that's far from true, but pointing out that this isn't an unambiguously defined question. I'm not sure I've never heard anyone state an ethnicity, but have heard the same people state belonging to multiple groups in different contexts. The dividing lines between what's an ethnicity and what's a race or a language group tend not to translate accur…

Why would we compare the US today to the US 100 years ago? Should the Jim Crow-era really be our North Star?

Categorizing it like this could be viewed minimizing today’s prejudice by comparing to prejudice of 100 years ago. I think the goal is to get to zero prejudice, so let’s compare against that.

“Women don’t have it so bad today, 100 years ago they couldn’t even vote.”

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#102

Post by tlarkworthy »

iguy wrote: post #77
tlarkworthy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that country is US you are hilariously mistaken https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-ethnically-diverse-... Africa and India are more diverse than US

Well it's going to depend on your definitions. By American categories, India is 100% asian, and almost every sub-saharan country is 100% black. Of course local definitions vary. But that aside, GP has a point that contemporary American culture spends a lot of energy worrying about this. The energy expended is a poor measure of the size of the problem.

Um, there was this thing called Apartheid in South Africa, and it wasn't between 100% black people. Yes, America has some terrific difficulties with race, but no, its not the only country with these issues. Saying America is the most diverse is ignorant.

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#103

Post by iguy »

moorhosj wrote: post #101
iguy wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending that the US is the "most ethnically diverse", I think that's far from true, but pointing out that this isn't an unambiguously defined question. I'm not sure I've never heard anyone state an ethnicity, but have heard the same people state belonging to multiple groups in different contexts. The dividing lines between what's an ethnicity and what's a race or a language group tend not to translate accur…

Why would we compare the US today to the US 100 years ago? Should the Jim Crow-era really be our North Star? Categorizing it like this could be viewed minimizing today’s prejudice by comparing to prejudice of 100 years ago. I think the goal is to get to zero prejudice, so let’s compare against that. “Women don’t have it so bad today, 100 years ago they couldn’t even vote.”

I write pretty carefully, kindly try not to put words into my mouth.

My reason for comparing real things, not utopias, is that we can learn things from them. Because they exist, or existed. And what you learn here is that the volume of argument about a bad thing is a poor indication of the prevalence of this bad thing. Quite possibly anti-correlated.

Here's an easier example for you. The Guardian is full of articles of a feminist bent, decrying the wage gap, etc. Literally every day there are half a dozen. The Saudi newspapers are not like this. There are no snarky comments about the princes all being men of the same racial group. This difference in the volume of discourse does not indicate that women have it worse in London than in Riyadh. And observing this simple fact does not indicate approval of the situation in either country.

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#104

Post by mmczaplinski »

iguy wrote: post #75

Can anyone knowledgeable comment on the depth of Kenya's internal divisions? From the NYT's perspective clearly Kenya is racially uniform, but I know that there was significant political violence at recent elections, to do with which tribe or language group candidates or parties represented. Do such distinctions matter only at voting time, or do they matter in everyday life too... like whether X landlords will be hap…

A westerner who used to live in Kenya for about 6 months. The tribal divisions are very much present in Kenya. You can tell the tribe that someone belongs to by their surname and to a lesser extent by physical appearance.

People are definitely more happy to hire others from their own tribe or rent rooms to them but it's more just nepotism than outright racism, at least in larger cities.

The violence that happened during the last elections was also driven mostly by political factors first, rather than race. It just so happens that the president Kenyatta and the political elites of Kenya come mostly from the Kikuyu tribe, which then leads to tensions along tribal lines.

In my experience, the tribal divisions are more pronounced in the countryside. Until recently, in some parts of the country there has been open conflict between tribes, e.g between Turkana and Samburu in the north. I have witnessed numerous times the Samburu use racial slurs to describe the Turkana and vice versa.

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#105

Post by Bakary »

dm3730 wrote: post #68
beerlord wrote: post #40

And here it is from the Chinese perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a-QpyF7rNc&t=3512s

I watched the video. It shows a Chinese site manager having a confusing interaction with several African workers. He then expresses somewhat racist views to the camera, eg: all Africans are well built because it is a survival of the fittest environment. But I could not follow what you meant by the Chinese perspective. Could you elaborate?

I do recommend watching the documentary in its entirety but there's also an interview with the director that addresses some of the themes in this thread.

https://filmmakermagazine.com/35197-empire-of-dust-an-interv...

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#106

Post by 50656E6973 »

throwaway0923 wrote: post #88
leongrado wrote: post #8

For the most part, Chinese in China don't have a culture of condemning racism like the US or other western nations. As apparent in the video, he isn't even ashamed of being called racist.

That’s because China’s racism is more about stereotypes and less about physical KKK type violence. If there was violence, it would definitely be condemned. The best analogy I can think of is the current Harvard Affirmative Action lawsuit. There are people who don’t feel they are racist/biased, but somehow justify to themselves that having a quota on Asian American students is fine.

Google "uighur muslims china", and you will see its much more "physical" than you claim

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#107

Post by ardy42 »

amaccuish wrote: post #89

Why does the nytimes offer translations into Chinese? I've never seen that for articles to do with Russia for example?

> Why does the nytimes offer translations into Chinese? I've never seen that for articles to do with Russia for example?

I think it started because they tried to start a Chinese edition for the PRC, but that was eventually blocked after they published a story the communists didn't like.

Maybe continuing to pay for translations is not too expensive in the grand scheme of things, and keeps them well-positioned (with mind-share and the like) if there's ever a thaw and they're unblocked.

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#108

Post by WalterSear »

yostrovs wrote: post #57
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's always strange to see communities which have the least amount of foreigners being the most xenophobic (East Germany, US Midwest/flyover, Australian Western Territory, large parts of Eastern Europe etc ...). Not saying xenophobia doesn't exist in the other territories, but it seems exposure and mixing can help a lot. EDIT: it seems the places where xenophobia doesn't exist are mere pockets in a vast ocean of bigo…

Funny how you lump the Midwest "flyover" here, the one that elects minorities to Congress, that has giant populations of immigrants from Somalia, middle East, etc, and that doesn't live gated in or secured by a doorman. Maybe your xenophobia for the people of the Midwest arises because you fly over them?

I have spent time flyover country, and, I'm sad to say that IME, the parent's is characterization is much closer than yours.

Re: Kenyans Say Chinese Investment Brings Racism and Discrimination (2018)

#110

Post by yostrovs »

WalterSear wrote: post #108
yostrovs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you lump the Midwest "flyover" here, the one that elects minorities to Congress, that has giant populations of immigrants from Somalia, middle East, etc, and that doesn't live gated in or secured by a doorman. Maybe your xenophobia for the people of the Midwest arises because you fly over them?

I have spent time flyover country, and, I'm sad to say that IME, the parent's is characterization is much closer than yours.

Would be nice to hear your explanation. I've lived in Midwest and both coasts. Haven't noticed a diversity difference. There are fewer Mexicans is the only difference I noticed. Otherwise lots of cultural diversity. Certainly more than in, say, Portland, Oregon, where everyone is white or Asian.
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