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Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

justinribeiro.com

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Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#61

Post by codetrotter »

jstanley wrote: post #33
denniskane wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started building something I like to call "Linux on the Web" (LOTW) 6+ years ago in order to start working on this problem (it's live on the web right now). Just like with node.js applications, the smallest legal file size for an app running inside of LOTW is precisely 0 bytes. I've tried to shave that down even more, but I seem to be running into physical limits :)

Can you share a link? People reading your comment have no way to know how to learn more about your project, or even whether it is relevant to the topic at hand. The most relevant result I could find for "linux on the web" was https://linuxontheweb.appspot.com/ which doesn't seem to be relevant at all.

I think that is the one actually because the looking at the post history [1] of the person you are responding to I find that the most recent post they made in the past was one titled “Linux on the Web” [2], which leads to that very URL that you found.

He also posted a comment in the thread with some more details:

> It makes heavy use of the HTML5 Filesytem for local storage, as well as Native Client for vim, python, and plugin codecs to enable highly configurable realtime a/v streaming via WebRTC peer connections. Windowed HTML5/JS applications can be developed live within the site itself. There is a feature to stream terminal sessions to each other, in order to show how to efficiently use vim to develop applications, for example.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=denniskane

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10977459

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#62

Post by Eli_P »

chippy wrote: post #21
wffurr wrote: post #3

What happens to your PWA page weight when you add tracking and ads to it? How do I find your ad-free hobby project in the sea of search results for "speedometer" PWAs on the open web? What makes sure you will keep paying the, admittedly modest, hosting costs for the app? I think it's great you can make "tiny PWAs" but I think the article is glossing over the incentives and discovery problem that leads to 30MB ad-infe…

The other, largely unspoken, downside to PWAs are that the user cannot block the tracking and ads in them when launched natively. Even though they might run on your android where you have firefox mobile with all the adblocking extensions enabled, and run that PWA in the browser. I'm sure this might be another reason why PWAs are being supported by the advertising industry platform suppliers.

Speaking of Firefox, there was Firefox OS which appeared to be a stillborn child. It's app distribution model likely was close to PWA's. There's also Chrome OS which has lived longer than its foxy twin, and is going to be incorporated into Android according to wiki.

I think PWA is about tooling, like Google's chrome dev tools or Workbox, and frameworks. The good side of it is sharing the codebase/API between app and website. The bad side is you may bet on the stillborn/transient tech and will have to rewrite or monkey-patch everything.

And ads were never the only business model, it's developer's choice. There are apps for Android w/ decent prices and w/o annoying banners. PWA is no different.

The convergent evolution leaves nothing untouched. I think if proliferate rate of web frameworks continues to grow exponentially, we'll have to deploy docker images right into the browser. I mean, it was a joke. Was it?

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#63

Post by codetrotter »

denniskane wrote: post #20
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #17

> “surely there is a app for that!” A quick look leads to speedometer apps with ads and 30MB download weight, and simple screen light that also have ads that weight in at 5MB. I’m finally groking what rms has been banging on about for so long. It is completely unacceptable that we are running software that does this to the user. Users need to be empowered and able to run code that they can control.

I started building something I like to call "Linux on the Web" (LOTW) 6+ years ago in order to start working on this problem (it's live on the web right now). Just like with node.js applications, the smallest legal file size for an app running inside of LOTW is precisely 0 bytes. I've tried to shave that down even more, but I seem to be running into physical limits :)

Does it work on mobile? On iOS 12 Safari this is what I see: https://i.imgur.com/NJjoZhU.png

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#64

Post by acct1771 »

eat_veggies wrote: post #50
megous wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If more people's reaction, instead of searching an app store for a privacy respecting screen light, was to sit down and write: let on true; and were able to easily upload it somewhere on a phone and run it locally from a shortcut on the screen. We'd have hacker culture encouraged right there.

I'd love that but I don't think it'll encourage hacker culture. Instead we'll have the Can-Code making things for the Can't-Code like we do now, but with even fewer checks for nefarious activity. Case study: people copy-pasting random code into their Myspace profiles

Inspired a lot of "can kinda read code"s to learn more - so they didn't get their pages compromised, haha

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#65

Post by jt2190 »

lazerwalker wrote: post #52
megous wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If more people's reaction, instead of searching an app store for a privacy respecting screen light, was to sit down and write: let on true; and were able to easily upload it somewhere on a phone and run it locally from a shortcut on the screen. We'd have hacker culture encouraged right there.

I wonder if https://glitch.com has a mobile-friendly IDE and will also let you set up a project to be a PWA? Seems like it'd be a great fit for what you're describing.

Hmm... When I pulled up one of my Glitch projects on my iPhone Xs the browser-based editor works but the editor view is either cut off on the right in portrait mode or almost offscreen when the keyboard displays in landscape mode.

I suspect you can get a better coding experience by connecting your Glitch account to Github and then using an editor that works well on your device.

The PWA part of Glitch is completely under your control.

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#66

Post by roryisok »

varjag wrote: post #39

I'm amazed there's a jurisdiction in a developed nation where driving a car with dead dashboard is legal.

That was my first reaction. If I was pulled over in Ireland with no dash the car would be impounded.

And the speedometer is great but what about the other info? Fuel gauge? Mileage? Battery Charge? Engine faults?? Geolocation won't help with any of those.

That said I do love the PWA approach to things and I think more people should embrace it. Just... not for this.

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#67

Post by denniskane »

codetrotter wrote: post #61
jstanley wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share a link? People reading your comment have no way to know how to learn more about your project, or even whether it is relevant to the topic at hand. The most relevant result I could find for "linux on the web" was https://linuxontheweb.appspot.com/ which doesn't seem to be relevant at all.

I think that is the one actually because the looking at the post history [1] of the person you are responding to I find that the most recent post they made in the past was one titled “Linux on the Web” [2], which leads to that very URL that you found. He also posted a comment in the thread with some more details: > It makes heavy use of the HTML5 Filesytem for local storage, as well as Native Client for vim, python,…

Hi, yes, that stuff is from quite awhile ago, seeing that NaCl/PNaCl is quite dead, and WASM is now all the rage. I previously had actual vim running via NaCl, but the current (better IMO) version is just a fairly small JS clone (about 70kb). The whole system is rapidly stabilizing right now, what with the entire gui framework being fleshed out, both conceptually and technically.

I try to stay away from the above kinds of sweeping generalizations about the whole thing nowadays. It is best to let it speak for itself and evolve in its own good time.

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#68

Post by PavlovsCat »

hawski wrote: post #55
lazerwalker wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the loss of control is unacceptable. I agree that only being able to get commercial apps like this that monetize through advertisements and selling opaquely-gathered tracking data is unacceptable. But I'm curious how much download weight matters, outside of as a proxy for "how much bloated ad bullshit is hiding inside the app bundle"? I'd wager the difference between a 2KB PWA and a 5MB or 30MB native app dow…

In case of apps I imagine something like this: 2kB will feel instant. 5MB will feel mostly quick. 30MB will feel like it had to earn it. When things are instant then it feels like magic. It's sad that having all those super fast machines everywhere we have to deal with so much bullshit. Your computer can push through gigabytes of memory on a second. Does it feel this way? That's why people still use CLI, at least the…

> 2kB will feel instant. 5MB will feel mostly quick. 30MB will feel like it had to earn it.

And that's just one usage, by one user. Multitply by thousands of usages and billions of users. It's inexcusable from a craftsmanship viewpoint.

Re: Tiny PWAs and why I keep building them

#69

Post by lazerwalker »

hawski wrote: post #55
lazerwalker wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the loss of control is unacceptable. I agree that only being able to get commercial apps like this that monetize through advertisements and selling opaquely-gathered tracking data is unacceptable. But I'm curious how much download weight matters, outside of as a proxy for "how much bloated ad bullshit is hiding inside the app bundle"? I'd wager the difference between a 2KB PWA and a 5MB or 30MB native app dow…

In case of apps I imagine something like this: 2kB will feel instant. 5MB will feel mostly quick. 30MB will feel like it had to earn it. When things are instant then it feels like magic. It's sad that having all those super fast machines everywhere we have to deal with so much bullshit. Your computer can push through gigabytes of memory on a second. Does it feel this way? That's why people still use CLI, at least the…

I think it's worth distinguishing install time from subsequent launch time. You seem to be describing the time it takes to go from seeing the app to using it for the first time. For an app you use regularly (or even just more than a few times ever), how long it takes an already-installed app to open from cold start seems like a much more important metric.

While bundle size might sometimes correlate with cold start times for PWAs (depending on whether it's JS code that's bloating the bundle, or other media assets that won't trigger an initial parsing + evaluation hit), that's less likely to be the case with native apps.

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