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Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

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Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#31
post #13

let’s ask what it takes to create an overall system that is fair to all, considering all aspects of how the system is paid for, who benefits, and who bears the external costs Here's a crazy idea: instead of pricing congestion, let's introduce a point system with quotas tied to license plates and surge point deduction. Puts a hard limit on the number of cars that enter the zone and applies both to the rich and poor eq…

> let's introduce a point system with quotas tied to license plates and surge point deduction. [...] Unless of course some of the rich decide to buy additional cars just so they can drive more - although I don't think many would be willing to go to such lengths.

During pollution spikes in Paris, the city occasionally alternates each day between forbidding odd or even ending car plates from circulating downtown. The rich do precisely what you say: buy an extra car and make sure the license plates are so they can drive any day regardless of restrictions.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#32

The way I conceptually see it is that people with lower income pay less once a year, during tax time, and save a lot of money then. All other times it's just much simpler if prices/fees/whatnot are based on actual usage. Can you imagine owning a gas station or running a parking lot and having to deal with income verification from all your clients, and then dealing with the government to get reimbursed because Joe Sch…

The author isn't suggesting that gas taxes should vary with income. His point is that they're a flat tax and flat taxes are regressive.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#33

This seems rather US-centric, but perhaps there are some universal things in there? In The Netherlands, we usually split off some of the issues; for example there is the tax that covers road usage paid per active registered vehicle. This depends on the vehicle, so depending on how expensive/big/powerful etc your new car would be, you'd pay more or less tax. For public transportation, more and more networks are gettin…

Yeah much of it doesn't transfer, but on the subject of the taxes in The Netherlands a lot of it is nonsensical:

1. You pay tax per weight of the vehicle, and that's a (mostly?) linear relationship. Whereas a 10 ton vehicle causes much more than 10x the wear & tear to roadways than a 1 ton vehicle.

2. Even if it were adjusted for the wear it shouldn't be a fixed fee, but based on actual usage. Paying it for a combination of the weight and mileage/yr would still not reflect reality, but would be closer.

3. There's no tax for vehicle size, just weight (the two don't always closely follow each other), which produces an externality on small Dutch roadways.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#34
I don't know about other cities, but to understand the strong political push back against congestion pricing in NYC requires a bunch of local context.

Neither the rich+, nor the poor, nor the vast majority of the middle class regularly commute into Manhattan by car. The poor and the lower/middle middle class because parking is prohibitively expensive. The upper middle class and the rich because they either live in Manhattan or they'd rather take commuter rail than sit in traffic. To the extent the latter take ubers or similar such services already pay congestion charges and there isn't too much fuss (except from the drives who don't have much political muscle).

The bulk of car commuters into Manhattan are instead those with de jure or de facto free parking. That's largely government workers (e.g. teachers, cops, firefighters) and members of the trades (i.e. construction workers).

For those with de jure free parking congestion pricing isn't a big deal, whatever authority is setting aside parking will either pay the congestion charge or get it waived. It's the beneficiaries of police and traffic control refusal to enforce the law with respect to certain favored populations that are up in arms about congestion charges. Because a congestion charge is likely to be enforced by an automated mechanism which, unlike parking control, will not engage in public corruption on their behalf. And these groups, unlike the uber drivers, do have a great deal of political muscle.

+At least the ordinary rich, hecto-millionaires and billionaires might be a different story

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#35

The way I conceptually see it is that people with lower income pay less once a year, during tax time, and save a lot of money then. All other times it's just much simpler if prices/fees/whatnot are based on actual usage. Can you imagine owning a gas station or running a parking lot and having to deal with income verification from all your clients, and then dealing with the government to get reimbursed because Joe Sch…

I was approached twice on the same day at a cub foods once by people offering to buy my groceries with their food stamps in exchange for a lesser amount of cash.

I still think the program is valuable, but damn it hurts to see it be abused (especially since one of the guys had his little kid with him). A discount card or whatever that works on the spot is practically guaranteed to be abused as an easy money maker for people, and the net effect ends up being counter to the purpose od the program and many others.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#36
I "love" those kind of articles, though this one is a bit different.

But it boils down to "let's make car owners pay a lot of money - (and this article) except if they're poor, then they can't afford being fleeced for wanting to drive" (really Capt. Obvious? so maybe fleecing drivers is not the way to go)

There's a balance between preferring other types of transportation and hating cars. Not to mention this article is US centric and seems to ignore how it's done elsewhere.

"Not pricing roads, which results in slower bus speeds. " there's an answer for that: bus lanes. Exists in several countries.

"Poor people pay more for parking than the rich" Really? (Oh by the way, they don't because of convenience and you might prefer the parking that's further and doesn't have a cover for your old car while the rich might favour the valet parking one next to their office)

I don't think there's much secret to it. Gas taxes are, in the end, a carbon tax. Use more gas pay more for it.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#37

The way I conceptually see it is that people with lower income pay less once a year, during tax time, and save a lot of money then. All other times it's just much simpler if prices/fees/whatnot are based on actual usage. Can you imagine owning a gas station or running a parking lot and having to deal with income verification from all your clients, and then dealing with the government to get reimbursed because Joe Sch…

[deleted]

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish other types of insurance (like health) were as easy to shop for as auto insurance. You can easily shop multiple insurers and compare prices from the comfort of your home and pick what works best for you. Libertarian here, healthcare.gov is this. Its great. well, its about as great as heavily bribed government sectors can be. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

Yeah, I wish they would do more to open up competition nationwide and unsaddle health insurance from employment. How ridiculous would it be if I needed to change car insurance every time I changed jobs. Stupid.

Exactly. Once we remove health insurance from employment, I think everyone will be a lot happier. One of the biggest stressors in changing jobs is health insurance. If employees didn't have to worry about that, choosing a new job would be less of a problem (or quitting altogether to work on a business idea).

Once the majority of people are buying their own health insurance, the market for doing so will improve, and we could see private alternatives to healthcare.gov, as well as more brokers willing to take that on.

If I could change one thing about history, it would be wage and price controls during WW2 that got us into the situation of employers offering health insurance, and if I could change anything now, it would be eliminating that. I ran the math, and _most_ of our employees would've been better off buying from the market (e.g. through the subsidies they don't qualify for because our company offers insurance). I presented this to my boss, and he rejected it on the grounds that people expect the company to provide it.

We need to kill that culture before we can seriously consider changing health insurance/care again.

Re: Things that are more inequitable than road pricing

#40

I don't know about other cities, but to understand the strong political push back against congestion pricing in NYC requires a bunch of local context. Neither the rich+, nor the poor, nor the vast majority of the middle class regularly commute into Manhattan by car. The poor and the lower/middle middle class because parking is prohibitively expensive. The upper middle class and the rich because they either live in Ma…

"Nobody drives a car in Manhattan cause traffic is just terrible!"
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