Can someone explain the argument here - isn’t the point of the minimum wage that a company has to ensure the employees (drivers, contractors, whatever) make at least the minimum wage. I realize Lyft doesn’t like it - it costs them money - but what’s their argument that they shouldn’t have to pay their drivers a living wage? Something something higher Utilization Uber? I read it twice but it’s still a little muddy to…
It’s a much more complex issue than you are reading into it. Lyft here is not opposing a plan to ensure drivers make a minimum wage nor opposing a plan to incentivize companies to increase their utilization rate, which is a measure of how much productive traffic they add to the city instead of unproductive traffic. On the first issue, Lyft is saying that the specific implementation of a minimum wage policy is going t…
Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
31–40 of 40 posts
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds overly complex. I don't see why regulation would need to worry about utilization, pricing structure, etc. Of course inefficient use of roads/vehicles is bad for a city - but even low utilization is probably better than private drivers? And low utilization is also bad for any company so why have any need to regulate based on it, all companies still want the highest utilization possible? I guess what I'm as…
It’s quite complicated. For example, in economic studies of taxi services there’s a well-known “round trip” problem with rides that go from an urban center to a relatively less dense outerlying area. Around NYC this might be a ride from the financial district out to a far out region of Queens or something. Once you drop off the rider, you’re less likely to immediately pick up a new rider in that random outlying area,…
This would seem at first glance to either be a case of predatory pricing, or it is not?
I still don’t see the why regulators shouldn’t separate the issue of minimum wage from the other issues (competition etc). Even if the regulation means killing Uber’s competitors, isn’t it the right decision to impose a minimum wage? Is there a similar debate about e.g what a minimum wage does to small vs large actors in retail?
If Uber uses a dominating market position unfairly or uses predatory pricing with investor money that should be addressed, but if Uber needs to “pad” their drivers wages $2 per hour and Lyft needs to pad $4 to reach minimum level due to Uber being able to use its size to get higher utilization, then that seems like competition as it should work?
I appreciate your attempt to explain why and how this is complicated - and I apologize for being thick here.
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s quite complicated. For example, in economic studies of taxi services there’s a well-known “round trip” problem with rides that go from an urban center to a relatively less dense outerlying area. Around NYC this might be a ride from the financial district out to a far out region of Queens or something. Once you drop off the rider, you’re less likely to immediately pick up a new rider in that random outlying area,…
> one criticism of Uber has been using investor capital to artificially reduce those costs down to levels totally unsustainable in terms of the actual demand and built-in costs. Essentially taking a loss to artificially over-service those areas This would seem at first glance to either be a case of predatory pricing, or it is not? I still don’t see the why regulators shouldn’t separate the issue of minimum wage from…
The problem is that Uber’s higher utilization is an arbitrary metric, and if we’re picking arbitrary metrics, why would we pick one that intrinsically entrenches the current market leader?
Just because Uber’s utilization might be higher than Lyft’s, that doesn’t mean either one of them is operating with a satisfactory utilization or an unsatisfactory one. What if Uber operated at 99% utilization, and Lyft at 95%. At that point, offering any financial incentive based on ranked utilization would be a huge waste of taxpayer money.
Meanwhile, if Uber and Lyft are at 15% and 10% utilization, it’s equally a waste to reward because those are such bad numbers that society is enduring major congestion costs.
Here’s an analogy. Suppose in the US that the government decided sports teams are a morally bad influence on society due to executive and athlete behavior.
As a result, they will reduce your team’s roster size unless you donate money to charity.
Suppose they were to “unlock” one new roster spot for every $1 million of charity donation. That seems possibly fair. Teams can each decide if it’s worth it, and it’s a flat fee affordable even by the least financially well-backed teams.
But instead suppose they tallied up all the donatioms to charity and ranked each team. The top team gets all roster spots, the next team gets most of them, and so on down to the teams that did not donate, which get no roster spots unlocked.
What’s the problem with the second model? It seems like a nice auction sort of way to do it, and that’s fair right?
Well one problem is that the whole point was to raise money for charity to offset ethical problems, and the auction method does not necessarily cause much donation to happen, only enough to be the winner, say. The winning team might have only donated $500k total, but they are still rewarded like they did something awesome. Society loses out.
The second problem is that it intrinsically favors teams with more money. They can buy the roster spots just based on their size, regardless of whether it is addressing the underlying ethical problem. For big teams it’s just a cost of doing business and the players can keep on doing cocaine in the hotel room, who cares. But for the small teams, even if they want to reform the underlying problem, they may not be able to afford to unlock roster spots, which reinforces that they won’t make as much money from winnings, which keeps them unable to buy future roster spots, and so on.
The utilization reward policy is like this in many ways. It doesn’t reward based on absolute levels of utilization or improvement of utilization... it intrinsically rewards based on your ranked utilization, which just reinforces the market share of existing operators.
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#34Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you saying the law advantages providers with over 10k/day and hurts providers with under 10k/day? I don't understand how that could be. The law doesn't apply to providers with under 10k/day, so they should have freedom to do whatever they find optimal.
The utilization formula part of the law advantages each operator individually according to that operator’s numeric utilization score. Imagine if utilization was like a credit rating and the TLC wants laws that ensure good credit ratings among operators. So they incentivize reaching a good credit rating. One option could be to say, hey if you get a credit rating about 700, that is good for the people, so you get a tax…
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
The utilization formula part of the law advantages each operator individually according to that operator’s numeric utilization score. Imagine if utilization was like a credit rating and the TLC wants laws that ensure good credit ratings among operators. So they incentivize reaching a good credit rating. One option could be to say, hey if you get a credit rating about 700, that is good for the people, so you get a tax…
dnautics and TylerE were talking about the 10k/day boundary. If your reply isn't about the 10k/day boundary, then I think you misunderstood them.
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
dnautics and TylerE were talking about the 10k/day boundary. If your reply isn't about the 10k/day boundary, then I think you misunderstood them.
No, I understood them. Despite my commentnot being directly about the 10k/day part of the issue, my reply is directly relevant to the parent comments. Perhaps you misunderstood my first comment?
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
> one criticism of Uber has been using investor capital to artificially reduce those costs down to levels totally unsustainable in terms of the actual demand and built-in costs. Essentially taking a loss to artificially over-service those areas This would seem at first glance to either be a case of predatory pricing, or it is not? I still don’t see the why regulators shouldn’t separate the issue of minimum wage from…
> “if Uber needs to “pad” their drivers wages $2 per hour and Lyft needs to pad $4 to reach minimum level due to Uber being able to use its size to get higher utilization, then that seems like competition as it should work?” The problem is that Uber’s higher utilization is an arbitrary metric, and if we’re picking arbitrary metrics, why would we pick one that intrinsically entrenches the current market leader? Just b…
How the different market actors are affected (whether it strengthens the incumbent) and how it affects congestion etc shouldn’t even be a concern! Road congestion is one thing. Competition is a separate thing. Minimum wages is a third thing. I don’t see any reason why regulation needs to consider any 2 at the same time. Predatory pricing is (often) illegal, congestion should mean raising congestion fees, min wages should be simple. Am I oversimplifying it?
If a $15 min wage was imposed in other parts of the market such as retail, who would care if WalMart was unfairly benefiting from it and would there be suggestions that regulation should be using a more complex metric so smaller retailers would be allowed to dodge the min wage requirement somewhat?
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
> “if Uber needs to “pad” their drivers wages $2 per hour and Lyft needs to pad $4 to reach minimum level due to Uber being able to use its size to get higher utilization, then that seems like competition as it should work?” The problem is that Uber’s higher utilization is an arbitrary metric, and if we’re picking arbitrary metrics, why would we pick one that intrinsically entrenches the current market leader? Just b…
That utilization is an arbitrary metric is exactly my point! Why use any metric in a minimum wage regulation? The regulation should be “drivers should make a decent wage, that is they should get enough hours and enough pay for each hour”. That’s it. How the different market actors are affected (whether it strengthens the incumbent) and how it affects congestion etc shouldn’t even be a concern! Road congestion is one…
Yes! In fact, in NYC there is already a huge backlash against the minimum wage increase stating that it unfairly hurts small businesses (who are forced to fire people and/or cut benefits since they cannot meet basic operating revenue requirements if they keep the same amount of staff and also have to pay them the higher wage).
Many proposals have been suggested that there should be offsetting tax breaks given to small businesses because the minimum wage unfairly hurts them more than larger chains.
A theme I see in all of your replies is something like “just do X” where X is enforcing a minimum wage or incentivizing rideshare utilization.
But it is way, way more complicated than that. If you “just raise the minimum wage” it can actually turn out to hurt workers overall, if the resulting price increases passed on to consumers cause demand to drop, or if businesses have to fire some workers and require overtime from a smaller staff, etc.
It’s the same with rideshare policies and many other things. If you “just do X” without understanding the economic ripple effects of X, you might end up hurting the very people that X was supposed to help.
Re: Ensuring a Level Playing Field for Rideshare
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I understood them. Despite my commentnot being directly about the 10k/day part of the issue, my reply is directly relevant to the parent comments. Perhaps you misunderstood my first comment?
TylerE was only talking about the 10k/day boundary. Why did you reply to TylerE if you wanted to talk about something else? You should have replied to someone else. As-is, the thread just became really confusing.
Because my comment was related to that. Not all related things had to be squarely about the 10k/day item. My reply, which was very related to the parent comments, just wasn’t about the 10k/day part.
It’s not necessary for a reply to focus on or discuss precisely the 10k/day item in order to be related and merit being a reply in this subthread.