Live data from Hacker News

Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

nytimes.com

451–460 of 468 posts

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm just incredibly baffled by what you're proposing the solution is if its not a cultural shift towards paying for content?" I am not in the news business. Nor am I am in the diesel motor business. It is not my task to suggest solutions to a changing business environment. The NYC can now, thanks to the internet, deliver its content to a world wide audience. A paywall can be easily established. I pay for good news (…

Wether you want it or not, you are in the news business – as a Customer, that is. Since that business is integral to democracy, it would seem we all have some stake in its success.

"Wether you want it or not, you are in the news business – as a Customer, that is."

Thanks for clarifying this for me. Based on this, there is nearly no business I am not in. Does that make me a businessman extraordinaire?

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#452
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either the boys surrounded and approached the old man to stand intimidatingly close as WaPo reported, or they did not The video clearly shows boys standing around a man, with one of them face to face with him. That is right in the video, clear as day. That is very much a clear fact. What you seem intent on breaking down is whether or not this was seen as some form of intimidation tactic and I'm trying to explain to…

> > Either the boys surrounded and approached the old man to stand intimidatingly close as WaPo reported, or they did not > The video clearly shows boys standing around a man, with one of them face to face with him. Did the boys surround and approach the old man to stand intimidatingly close as WaPo reported? Answer Y or N. > > You seem genuinely confused about the nature of reality. > how am I in a 'confused nature…

Note this:

> > The video clearly shows boys standing around a man, with one of them face to face with him.

I suspect they've only seen the short context-less clip, not the actual video, and that's why they can't answer yes or no.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#453
post #131

I do pay for news, however one request I have for news providers is a greater emphasis on presenting news from all sides. Over the last 4-5 years most news providers have picked a political side (to a much greater extent than I recall in the past). This is true in both countries for which I follow news (India and the US). Given an event I can predict the coverage that venues will give it. This is troubling to me, and…

Completely disagree. I want the facts, backed by people who know the situation. I do not want “fair and balanced.” Not all sides have equal grounding and I’m tired of this false equivalence. We are seriously in times where one side denies climate change. There is zero point in giving them time because it elevates their point to being equal to the one backed by actual climate scientists, not industry that has a vested…

All kinds of "absolute tests" are generally wrong.

For instance, your climate change (which was called until a few years ago "global warming") test rubbed me the wrong way because you mentioned the "climate scientists". There is no such thing as a climate scientist because there is no climate science. There is climate research or climate studies but not Science. Science means application of Scientific method: (a) making observations -> (b) formulating hypothesis (falsifiable predictions) -> (c) proving or rejecting the hypothesis through experimentation. Climate studies lack the third step and therefore they are not science.

Should I dismiss the rest of your argument based on my own test of "the person fails to understand the difference between science and ontology"?

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#454
post #452
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Either the boys surrounded and approached the old man to stand intimidatingly close as WaPo reported, or they did not > The video clearly shows boys standing around a man, with one of them face to face with him. Did the boys surround and approach the old man to stand intimidatingly close as WaPo reported? Answer Y or N. > > You seem genuinely confused about the nature of reality. > how am I in a 'confused nature…

Note this: > > The video clearly shows boys standing around a man, with one of them face to face with him. I suspect they've only seen the short context-less clip, not the actual video, and that's why they can't answer yes or no.

I suspect this too. Also

> If I walk up to you and stand in your face, and you tell me that it made you feel intimidated I don't have the right to go "Stop, you're wrong".

Makes me think they never watched the many videos of the old man doing this, not the boys.

But they said they watched the videos and it wouldn't be civil to say they're not telling the truth.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#455
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that they report differently, but that they fixate on a particular part of the whole picture, and emphasize it beyond all proportion, while neglecting other parts of the picture. It's like if you asked somebody to describe an elephant for you and they'd spend 99% of the time on its tail, describing it in a minute detail up to each hair on its end, and then spending only a couple of words on the res…

Sounds like they are pointing out the normalization and you are doubling down after being told that no, having a heart attack at 30 isn't normal.

There's no "normalization" - nobody treats murders as "normal". However, there's a difference between treating it as normal and treating is as bad, but rare abnormal, and putting it in the context of overall big picture. You can say "66 people are attacked by sharks recently" and it would look like a bloody carnage which warrants very grave concern. Or you can put it in the context that it's over all wide world, and there was one single shark attack fatality in the US over whole past year, and about 10x more people are killed each year by vending machines.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are credible scientists who disagree with the climate change narrative. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them "nut jobs" or "deniers" or any other label you care to attach. Equating folks who don't agree with a lot of climate change assertions with flat earthers is not productive in any way. And I agree with you're analysis; legacy media typically trot out straw men only to signal how superio…

I wasn't specifically saying all climate change deniers are nut jobs, just that the ones the media trots out often are. I'm not familiar enough with the denial side to evaluate their position - but that's the modern problem isn't it? We have to delegate to a third party to assess ideas for us because we don't have the time or expertise to fully understand every political position. But if that third party becomes bias…

Why don't you go investigate the denial side? It will probably only take thirty minutes and might be interesting.

I did this once. I had fully accepted the media's narrative that these people were all kooks and idiots, so I was curious what could possibly cause them to think these things. I went and read some of their websites for the same reason I went and read some flat earther websites the other day, for amusement.

Unfortunately it turned out that (surprise) journalists had been wildly misleading me about what these people really believe, probably because journalists as a class of people accept intellectual authority without question, especially in the scientific realm. The problem of fraudulent psychology results is one well known example of this.

Here's what a lot of "climate change denial" really boils down to:

- CO2 is indeed a greenhouse gas. We are indeed releasing lots of it.

I've yet to see anyone deny this, although I'm sure there are people out there who do. However this is not mainstream "denial".

- But we don't really know what effect this is having, or if it's really changing the climate

This is where climate change "deniers" separate from journalistic mainstream. They aren't so much in denial as much, much less certain about climate science and its conclusions, to the extent that they often conclude nothing should be done.

- This is partly because the climate is too complex to model, and partly because of scientific bias, fraud and malpractice.

A lot of climate change denial turns out to be a specific case of more general criticisms of the scientific establishment. Their style of argument can easily be ported to criticisms of social science or economics, with hardly any tweaks.

Basically: proclaiming certain doom and that your field of study is the only way to avoid it is a surefire way to get massive amounts of grant money, media coverage and political power. In addition, the "deniers" tend to have lots of evidence of actual serious problems with the science. One recent article I saw pointed out that the thermometer dataset that has been used for over 20 years to measure climate change is full of obvious errors, like temperatures that would be physically impossible or which are clearly the result of bad celsius/Farenheit conversions, or which are taken from thermometers that are literally at the start of airport runways i.e. routinely blasted with jet exhaust.

When errors that are obvious to laymen are discovered in critical datasets that have been used for years to make very precise predictions about very complex things, it is reasonable for some people to conclude the science is less certain than journalists present it, and as a consequence that maybe the costs of inaction are lower than has been presented.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#457
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No-one (left or right) would have found a word-fight between evenly-wrong grey characters very interesting if that was the story in the first place. That you would rank the Covington kids as "evenly-wrong" with their racist (not to mention adult) abusers is incredible.

Does the behaviour of one group somehow excuse the unacceptable behaviour of another? "Two wrongs don't make a right"? (Not debating the "even-ness of wrongs", as that is a six-year-old's excuse for punching their sibling - "They started it!!")

Except there was no unacceptable behavior from the part of the kids (unless you consider "standing and smiling while being abused by racists and nutcases" unacceptable behavior). That was a complete fabrication to make the story fit the narrative. There weren't two wrongs - there was just one wrong, and it was from the other side than the press claimed it to be.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#458
post #131

I do pay for news, however one request I have for news providers is a greater emphasis on presenting news from all sides. Over the last 4-5 years most news providers have picked a political side (to a much greater extent than I recall in the past). This is true in both countries for which I follow news (India and the US). Given an event I can predict the coverage that venues will give it. This is troubling to me, and…

Completely disagree. I want the facts, backed by people who know the situation. I do not want “fair and balanced.” Not all sides have equal grounding and I’m tired of this false equivalence. We are seriously in times where one side denies climate change. There is zero point in giving them time because it elevates their point to being equal to the one backed by actual climate scientists, not industry that has a vested…

The problem with that line of reasoning is that climate scientists have jobs too, and they get money for promoting their viewpoint just as the coal industry does. It's hard to argue coal workers have "vested interests" but science workers don't.

In fact if you investigate it, you'll find a lot of so-called "climate change denial" is not so much denial as skepticism about the robustness and motives of climate science. There are some remarkably famous climate change skeptics you wouldn't expect, like a former head of Greenpeace who wrote an interesting essay that basically claimed oceanic acidification (due to extra CO2 being absorbed) was junk science. I didn't bother digging in to the merits of that specific debate, but when even the former heads of ecological charities are flagging problematic scientific practices, and when I've witnessed quite a bit in other non-climate fields, it's not a big stretch to believe that academia may have been exaggerating or mis-interpreting things to unlock grant money. Certainly other areas of science have developed a big problem with that (p-hacking etc).

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are credible scientists who disagree with the climate change narrative. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them "nut jobs" or "deniers" or any other label you care to attach. Equating folks who don't agree with a lot of climate change assertions with flat earthers is not productive in any way. And I agree with you're analysis; legacy media typically trot out straw men only to signal how superio…

It almost doesn't matter what a few credible scientists think about climate change--it maters what the overall consensus agree is and what most climate scientists believe. A huge part of science as a field is consensus.

How do you define or measure consensus?

I think this debate goes round in circles because we rely on news organisations to do several things at once, and they should probably be unbundled.

We rely on them to report immediate, factual events, like a fire in a hotel or an impending storm.

We rely on them to do longer form reporting on social trends, new scientific findings, business and governmental activities, etc.

We rely on them to locate and expose corruption and malpractice amongst the powerful.

We rely on them for book and film reviews.

And sometimes we rely on them to engage in analysis and generally telling us what to think, because figuring out our own opinions on complex topics is hard work. We'd like them to do it for us and then boil things down to an executive summary that we can then adopt wholesale as if it were our own opinions.

It's not clear to me that it makes sense to bundle so many things together, or if this is a useful combination or just an artifact of an earlier era when distributing the written word required lots of equipment and big agent networks. Now the internet exists should we be defending these agglomerations or breaking them apart?

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#460
post #450
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't do tedious tit-for-tit flamewars on HN. You also crossed into incivility. That's not cool, and we've had to warn you about it before.

Hi Dan. Acknowledged re: tit for tat, I did try and end it earlier as you can see but got lulled back when the other poster misquoted me. I was being very cafeful to be civil though - even though this is difficult with someone who won't give a firm opinion on something. I succeeded in that. You haven't said I was uncivil before either - we've had a few discussions about articles I've written that have been on HN and…

I think the bit that struck me as uncivil was "You seem genuinely confused about the nature of reality."
Post reply on HN