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I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

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Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#41

Post by shareme »

noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

Unfortunately you need to re-read.

They(TSA) did not follow SOP and warn her that such a search would entail what was described thus its sexual assault be legal definition..same rules as the pat-down when someone is arrested BTW..

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#42

Post by noonespecial »

stretchwithme wrote: post #39
aneth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that while she may feel violated, this is not sexual assault, and to say it is detracts from any argument about the rationality behind this new policy. Sexual assault requires a sexual motive and a sexual act, neither of which occurred here. The intent and action were both to search. A doctor touching the same place in the same way would not be considered sexual assault because there is no sexual i…

yeah, because it doesn't matter what the victim of an assault thinks, just whats going on in the mind of the assailant.

Careful, it doesn't rest solely upon the perception of the victim either.

Based on what my OP has already stirred up, it looks like there's a point of friction where circumstance, intent of assailant and perception of victim interesct. Lively debate will no doubt ensue because when it come to this TSA patdown thing, these variables are all over the map.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#43

Post by aneth »

stretchwithme wrote: post #39
aneth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that while she may feel violated, this is not sexual assault, and to say it is detracts from any argument about the rationality behind this new policy. Sexual assault requires a sexual motive and a sexual act, neither of which occurred here. The intent and action were both to search. A doctor touching the same place in the same way would not be considered sexual assault because there is no sexual i…

yeah, because it doesn't matter what the victim of an assault thinks, just whats going on in the mind of the assailant.

Saying it's not sexual assault doesn't mean the person's feelings aren't real, or that they weren't victimized, or didn't feel violated. It simply means you can not accuse the person performing the search of sexual assault. Accusing the TSA agent, who was doing their job of searching a passenger with (I'm hoping) no sexual intent, of sexual assault creates a second victim, and is extremely irresponsible and unethical.

For the most part, yes, it doesn't matter what the victim thinks when deciding whether to accuse someone of sexual assault.

If I throw a wild pitch and hit you in the head, it's different than throwing an accurate pitch at your head, even if you can't tell the difference. Both are bad - but one is assault. Intent matters.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#44

Post by roel_v »

stretchwithme wrote: post #39
aneth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that while she may feel violated, this is not sexual assault, and to say it is detracts from any argument about the rationality behind this new policy. Sexual assault requires a sexual motive and a sexual act, neither of which occurred here. The intent and action were both to search. A doctor touching the same place in the same way would not be considered sexual assault because there is no sexual i…

yeah, because it doesn't matter what the victim of an assault thinks, just whats going on in the mind of the assailant.

No, not just in the mind of the assailant, but feeling like you've been been assaulted doesn't make it assault, either. There is a lot of case law refining the status of the relationship between the intents of the attacker and the perception of the event of the victim. (I'm not familiar with specific US examples on this, maybe someone else can fill me in here...)

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#45

Post by aneth »

stretchwithme wrote: post #39
aneth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that while she may feel violated, this is not sexual assault, and to say it is detracts from any argument about the rationality behind this new policy. Sexual assault requires a sexual motive and a sexual act, neither of which occurred here. The intent and action were both to search. A doctor touching the same place in the same way would not be considered sexual assault because there is no sexual i…

yeah, because it doesn't matter what the victim of an assault thinks, just whats going on in the mind of the assailant.

If it did matter what the victim thought, any patient could accuse their doctor of sexual assault because they had a bad day and felt victimized by their check-up.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#46

Post by siculars »

credo wrote: post #21

The TSA policy concerns me. The only silver lining I see is that they may be responsive to the public outcry and figure out a better way to screen people. Perhaps, we should get the Israelis to train our TSA folks http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/08/enhanced-pat-downs.html offers one reason to be optimistic. A number of critical comments talk about "molesting", "groping", "assault" etc. and these comments haven't been censor…

> The fact that the govt is permitting an open discussion

We may well be on a slippery slope but I don't recall the government issuing permits for open discussions - yet. Or even a group of people needing said permit to conduct said open discussion.

Although I agree with you about the Israel thing.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#47

Post by siculars »

ghshephard wrote: post #29
siculars wrote: post #9

I've argued that the correct way to do airline safety is the way ElAl does it. The most salient argument against that is that the ElAl system will not scale. So let me get this straight, privacy stripping full body scanners and an army of ill-trained TSA agents is a more scalable solution? The current situation is untenable. I am incredibly concerned by the latest round of rights and liberty infringing actions by the…

It should also be noted, that when ElAl does decide to do a pat down as part of their security policy, it is not gentle. I know a couple people (men) who've gone through it, and even though they knew it was a possibility, they still came out of it quite shaken - it is the equivalent of a full-on civilian police search, and bears only a passing resemblance to what the TSA is doing. The difference is, of course, the TS…

Oh yes, oh yes indeed. My quarrel is not so much with invasive searching but rather with blanket invasive searching of all citizens. If according to specific rules and specific guidelines a trained agent and her superior were to determine there was due cause for further screening then so be it.

Abuse can be weeded out and consequent repercussions meted out by simple analytics on reports gathered on every 'enhanced' screening.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#48

Post by lastyear »

yakisoft wrote: post #13

Every day America looks a less attractive place to visit or do business with.

Where have you people been living? Not in my America where people are groped, fondled, struck, shackled, beaten, stripped, locked up, and worse every day. And these are innocent people guilty of no crime. This has been going every day of this woman's life. Are you living in a bubble? Is this really the first time this woman has been patted down?

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#49

Post by stretchwithme »

aneth wrote: post #43
stretchwithme wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, because it doesn't matter what the victim of an assault thinks, just whats going on in the mind of the assailant.

Saying it's not sexual assault doesn't mean the person's feelings aren't real, or that they weren't victimized, or didn't feel violated. It simply means you can not accuse the person performing the search of sexual assault. Accusing the TSA agent, who was doing their job of searching a passenger with (I'm hoping) no sexual intent, of sexual assault creates a second victim, and is extremely irresponsible and unethical…

the people violating our fourth amendment protection against unreasonable searches are willingly creating the first victim, so I'm not too concerned they'll be mislabeled, especially when they refuse to stop after being informed of the impacts of their behavior.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#50

Post by siculars »

defen wrote: post #16
siculars wrote: post #9

I've argued that the correct way to do airline safety is the way ElAl does it. The most salient argument against that is that the ElAl system will not scale. So let me get this straight, privacy stripping full body scanners and an army of ill-trained TSA agents is a more scalable solution? The current situation is untenable. I am incredibly concerned by the latest round of rights and liberty infringing actions by the…

The El Al system also makes heavy use of profiling, which is politically untenable in the U.S., and agents who are smart/well-trained enough to make judgment calls on the ground. TSA contractors are currently paid so little that I doubt you're ever going to get much more than bottom of the barrel in terms of motivation, intelligence, and agreeableness.

Isn't this all profiling? The public is subject to taking off their shoes because the powers that be profiled a threat vector from the shoe bomber. Replace shoes with razor blades, liquids, underwear and now toner cartridges.

Since when did "profiling" become a dirty word? Perhaps when "racial" joined the party. I maintain that profiling is essential to ensuring our security when implemented sanely, rationally and with appropriate oversight.

How about UPS and FedEx not shipping from Yemen. The entire country! Isn't that collective punishment?

If we can not expect "agents who are smart/well-trained enough to make judgment calls" to implement security to know the good guys from the bad guys then we are well and truly fucked.

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