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I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

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Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#21

Post by credo »

The TSA policy concerns me.

The only silver lining I see is that they may be responsive to the public outcry and figure out a better way to screen people. Perhaps, we should get the Israelis to train our TSA folks

http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/08/enhanced-pat-downs.html offers one reason to be optimistic. A number of critical comments talk about "molesting", "groping", "assault" etc. and these comments haven't been censored. The fact that the govt is permitting an open discussion may well mean that they'll take all the feedback into consideration.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#22

Post by credo »

noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

>>but there are many circumstances in life where we must suffer the same indignities which are not considered assault. A visit to the doctor for example.

This analogy makes very little sense.

The doctor cannot stop me from visiting a different doctor (who may not insist on the same tests) and the doctor cannot compel me to cancel a trip across the Atlantic if I refuse to submit to the tests. The government can.

The doctor has to convince the patient that the test is necessary. The TSA agent can ignore any evidence of the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of patdowns and doesn't need to obtain your consent.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#23

Post by noonespecial »

biot wrote: post #20
noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

> there are many circumstances in life where we must suffer the same indignities > which are not considered assault. A visit to the doctor for example. If you are required to get groped by the receptionist before you are allowed to see your doctor, you might have a point.

Yes. Thankyou. That's why I put in footnote 1. One of the biggest problems with this is we seem to have a spectrum of consent from the "I'll make them grope my sack before going like a sheep into the nudie-pic-machine" to the author of this article who had no foreknowledge or choice in the matter. The consent factor is very important here.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#24

Post by sliverstorm »

I am starting to wonder if perhaps there is something wrong with me, for I am not outraged as everyone else seems to be. So long as there's no groping etc going on, I'm inclined to just shrug and say to the agent, "well, you gotta do what you gotta do".

I am sorry HN, but I find myself lacking the desire to board this bandwagon.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#25

Post by cookiecaper »

noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

I strongly agree. I think if you read the post it is definitely evident that although this was an unpleasant experience, the author is blowing things out of proportion. I know that may seem insensitive, but in the context of your post, I think it's important to be explicit about this point.

The woman was given a rather invasive through-clothing security pat down. Of course this can be discomforting and invasive, especially if you're caught off guard. And of course such searches are extremely hard to justify and should never be codified into policy. Yes, it can be traumatic and violating, but this is nothing like a rape or "real" sexual assault.

A few months ago a jogger around here was hit with a cinder block, dragged off the trail, raped several times, beat with said block more, and left for dead in the woods. _That_ is real sexual assault. Such rapes are not really uncommon, though many less violent rapes also occur, and they are also highly traumatic and serious; much more serious than a TSA worker going about their mundane duties, which they are probably not very happy to be forced to perform either.

The activity described in the post is unpleasant touching, and I agree that we shouldn't allow it, but these events are not even in the same league as "real" sexual abuse or rape. I support your efforts to reclaim the term as a service to those many who've suffered serious abuses whole-heartedly.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#26

Post by c1sc0 »

noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

"I'd rather take my chances on the bomb." I wish more people, especially politicians, were mature enough to accept this. Not gonna happen in current western political systems though.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#27

Post by chc »

cookiecaper wrote: post #25
noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

I strongly agree. I think if you read the post it is definitely evident that although this was an unpleasant experience, the author is blowing things out of proportion. I know that may seem insensitive, but in the context of your post, I think it's important to be explicit about this point. The woman was given a rather invasive through-clothing security pat down. Of course this can be discomforting and invasive, espe…

I think that's attempted murder and torture. Using that as the bar for sexual assault downplays real victoms' experiences as well. (I don't mean this to disagree with your overall point. I just don't want to see the bar swing the other way where people feel like they're being told to shut up about sexual assault unless they were bludgeoned with a cinderblock.)

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#28

Post by [deleted] »

credo wrote: post #22
noonespecial wrote: post #15

I've been watching these stories trickle by on HN for a few days now wondering if I should say what I'm about to say. I'm going to put up an opinion that I'm quite certain is going to be unpopular. At length, I think the potential karma burn is worth speaking out. If you choose to downvote me, please drop in a reasonable reply as well: We ought not to call these incidents sexual assault. It sounds too much like hyper…

>>but there are many circumstances in life where we must suffer the same indignities which are not considered assault. A visit to the doctor for example. This analogy makes very little sense. The doctor cannot stop me from visiting a different doctor (who may not insist on the same tests) and the doctor cannot compel me to cancel a trip across the Atlantic if I refuse to submit to the tests. The government can. The d…

[deleted]

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#29

Post by ghshephard »

siculars wrote: post #9

I've argued that the correct way to do airline safety is the way ElAl does it. The most salient argument against that is that the ElAl system will not scale. So let me get this straight, privacy stripping full body scanners and an army of ill-trained TSA agents is a more scalable solution? The current situation is untenable. I am incredibly concerned by the latest round of rights and liberty infringing actions by the…

It should also be noted, that when ElAl does decide to do a pat down as part of their security policy, it is not gentle. I know a couple people (men) who've gone through it, and even though they knew it was a possibility, they still came out of it quite shaken - it is the equivalent of a full-on civilian police search, and bears only a passing resemblance to what the TSA is doing.

The difference is, of course, the TSA is subjecting everyone who opts out of the back scatter machine to their pat-down, whereas ElAl does so only to those they find suspicious.

Re: I stood there, an American citizen, sexually assaulted by a government official

#30

Post by heretoo »

yakisoft wrote: post #13

Every day America looks a less attractive place to visit or do business with.

Yes, America is off my list for the moment. I guess it's a luxury not everyone can enjoy. I'm starting to worry that my own country is moving in the same direction. It's not healthy that a government has so much control over it's people. They are there to serve the people, not the other way around.
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