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New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

forbrukerradet.no

251–260 of 463 posts

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#251
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when you say SV Company you mean high-growth technology leveraging company that puts profit first? I’m honestly struggling to understand how you apply SV to a company that is not physically from SV, or at least very nearby.

Silicon Valley isn't just a place, it's a mindset and set of values. I deal with "Silicon Valley" businesses in London. It's spreading. Not sure why you're making such a big deal about this.

Curious how you would define the set of values. Microsoft has dramatically different values from Google, so much so that Google's company values were in many ways explicitly a dig at Microsoft.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#252

I for one are happy to be tracked so that my experience is optimal. Edit: I understand the potential issues and especially with someone like Google using it for other things. But I am more concerned about the backlash against using data to improve our world. There are many different areas which would be improved greatly from more data and would be to everyone's benefit. Personally I have always shared as much as I ca…

Is your perspective that if everyone shared everything, that we'd all see that we've all got embarrassing/illegal/otherwise unsavory aspects and would eventually change society to see people more realistically? Sort of a "nude beach" perspective? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#253

What Android desperately needs is an additional API layer that provides apps like Google and others with fake location data and fake contact data so there's simply no way they can tell that you're holding information back. Turning off these data sources just makes them use dark patterns to get you to turn them back on; spoofing the data is the real solution.

What you're looking for is called 'MicroG'. They even have their own LineageOS builds with it.

Haven't tested it though, and it comes with its own set of security concerns.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#254
post #194
post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

Amazon finally exceeded my tolerance for slimy behavior last year, and I let Prime lapse. The amount of time and energy they have put in to making it hard to compare prices in their own goddamn store was enough by itself; behavior like this is motor-oil icing on the garbage cake. I had to readjust a few common purchases, but I was far less habituated to them than I thought I was. Having to actually pay attention and…

Yep, let Prime lapse a year or two ago as well. Moving my business to other companies now.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#255
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Answering "no" should mean you store it locally, not that you don't store it at all. If you tell Google not to save your search history on their servers, they just disable it completely, when they could just save it locally. This is nowhere near a product problem. The setting is per-account, so it's not like it'd be disabled on one device and enabled on another, so they'd get some weird UX, they just like crippling…

> Obviously I am biased, but I think you're being a little too cynical. Very possibly. > Supporting the use case you described, which is not used by the vast majority of users does not align with the incentives given to them. I think you have causation wrong here. Users leave search history enabled because Google makes it unnecessarily hard to use the app with it disabled. > Recently, Google updated its values (I can…

> I think you have causation wrong here. Users leave search history enabled because Google makes it unnecessarily hard to use the app with it disabled.

That's a fair point. Nevertheless, most people on the team were not there when this feature was first introduced and we can only work from where we are now. To undo the status quo is something few are in a position to do.

> So what you're saying is "there's no incentive for allowing the user to have a good experience using the app without sending us data", or did I get that wrong? That doesn't sound awesome.

Correct.

> If your answer to the latter is "No", I don't care if your values say "The User is the Alpha and the Omega, thou shalt have no other priorities before the User", it's a red herring because you aren't following your values, you're following the money.

I think we are in agreement.

I don't think anyone is following the Values because the incentive structure doesn't align with it. I would like to believe it takes time for these changes to manifest but frankly I'm skeptical it will ever happen.

I'm not trying to convince you things are great or even okay. I just would like to dispel the notion that everyone or every team at Google is scheming together to get as much of your data as possible. Google, like any company, is made of individuals who largely are there to make money and whose actions are driven by the incentive structure. As it stands, the incentives are largely around getting more users and there is very little incentive to create privacy focused solutions (customers don't really seem to care.. or know..?)

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#256
post #105
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit too, they cripple their mobile website to force you into their mobile app and hence your data.

Oh man, tell me about it. I lurk on Reddit from time to time from my smartphone and the experience nowadays is terrible. I have like half a dozen elements disabled using u-block to make it somewhat bearable. From the pulsating button at the top of every page to the multiple dialogs taking turn to harass you into installing the app... On top of that I've noticed that the website keeps getting slower and slower to load…

I don't bother there anymore. Either they fix it, or someone else will have the content. Not much OC but advertising now. Rampart.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#257
Google is notorious for refusing to allow users to say no. They misread the book "Nudge" and use the nudge techniques t to shove or one could use less charitable descriptive words.

e.g. I would like to make the choice to NOT bind my location data to my identity. In theory I can do that by not logging into Maps. In practice Google refuses to allow that choice, constant nagging, attempts to force their desired choice by nerfing logged out features. When you don't allow your uses to say no you're not actually providing them any choice at all.

Google either needs to commit to allowing their users to say no or we (their users but also citizens) need to have our courts and governments force them to do it.

Note to you Google folks reading this (I'm looking at you Larry). Seriously. Step up now because you will be sued for this, and you will force legislation if you continue down this path.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#258
post #104
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the native app, albeit in beta, so you may not have it yet. You can turn on smile functionality in the app, but you must turn on all notifications. "Also what does Amazon have to do with SV?" Amazon is part of metaphorical Silicon Valley. So's Microsoft, for instance. Metaphorical Silicon Valley is too large to fit in literal Silicon Valley.

Is IBM included in metaphorical Silicon Valley? What about Expedia? Or Concur? Seems very arbitrary. Is metaphorical Silicon Valley only applicable to negative actions of tech companies or does it apply to all big tech companies? I searched for “metaphorical Silicon Valley” and didn’t see anything relevant. Also how did you get into this beta and where is the actual option? Is it under notifications? I’d prefer to us…

in this context, "silicon valley" is used to mean the tech industry, and everyone here knows what the comment means.

it's as if you're complaining that somebody referred to "wall street" during the discussion of an investment bank because they're actually located in CT.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who was forcing the many famous Victorian philanthropist industrialists to build their railway and model villages, with free schools, hospitals and more for workers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_village

That was definitely for their benefit of their workers rather than the greater society, and on the whole doesn't seem much different than the larger Silicon Valley companies of today. Take Facebook for example. They have a large utopian-esque campus for the benefits of their workers. In this campus they have bikes for getting around, free bars and restaurants (and an ice cream shop), an on campus doctor, bicycle repa…

And these exist mostly to keep workers on campus, so that they don't need to go home as much.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ad-tech industry has tapped into what can only be called -- and no offense to anyone here -- "virtue signalling." There's no doubt studies done on this, hence the new "controversial" sort of nature of some of the advertising. Who knew that Gillette and Nike were so interested in social issues, and not a bottom line PNL result. In the same way, perhaps, Amazon marketing teams found some research to suggest…

what you’re pointing out is corporate social responsibility (CSR), which emerged decades ago. it’s an extension of branding, which advertising, among other marketing tools, supports. virtue signalling is on the consumer side, where consumption of the brand has the (positive) side effect of showing how with it and magnanimous you are. in any case, i also don’t see how it applies here (as sibling commenter points out).

Interesting, it's always good to know what the technical lingo is in these things, it helps us understand how the marketing minds think.
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