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New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

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Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#231

Post by maxxxxx »

_underfl0w_ wrote: post #218
dzader wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious why you feel so entitled that you think Google should provide you with their free mapping service and features with nothing in exchange?

Either that or you weren't here for early versions of Google Maps, haven't heard of OsmAnd, Mapbox, OpenStreetMaps, etc. or you just really like calling people 'entitled'.

Very true. the first versions were very straightforward and only later on they did stuff like connecting saving a location with location tracking. From casual observation I even think they turned this on and off several times. They still show me some locations I saved years ago but I can't modify them or add new ones.

The annoying part is that google maps is really good at searching locations. None of the open source alternatives can do stuff like "Indian buffet Venice" so I often have to use Google maps to find something. Once I have the location saved I would say OpenStreetMaps apps are totally competitive.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#232

Post by u76X3k7w2iUrAPn »

stlHusker wrote: post #199
jimmytucson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3 or 4 rounds of A/B testing and you get the most efficient (read: manipulative) method of getting users "engaged" Now replace “engaged” with “to buy stuff” and that’s essentially online advertising. You’re being tricked by gurus of the mind to send your money to someone else. How this is legal represents a gap between traditional laws and modern times. The sad truth for us software engineers is, a lot of the most…

> You’re being tricked by gurus of the mind to send your money to someone else. How this is legal represents a gap between traditional laws and modern times. Eh, this has existed for decades at a macro level in over-the-air television and radio. 'If you're not paying for the product, you are the product' is a quote that has been floating around since at least the 1970s. Methods and techniques now have the ability to…

I'm a relatively fresh grad working in development for a university. It's slow. It's stable. It's not very sexy. I could probably double my salary elsewhere. But, my conscience is pretty clean for this very reason. I build tools to make university operations more efficient, not to squeeze every last drop of data from our users or manipulate them into buying a product.

There are definitely problems to be addressed in higher ed and how universities are run, but it's nowhere near Silicon Valley's lack of ethics.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#233

Post by pdkl95 »

tossaccount123 wrote: post #163
jimmy1 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the point of you pointing out Eric's claim to a particular political ideology after a statement of his intelligence? Are you somehow implying one is more virtuous / intelligent than another? If we changed that to conservatism does that your meaning or what you were trying to convey?

I was more pointing out how either side can hypocritically rationalize things that run counter to their supposed beliefs because they make money off being hypocrites. Nobody thinks they're evil, people can rationalize all sorts of crazy behavior.

> Nobody thinks they're evil,

I do, because evil is banal. Rationalizing crazy behavior is what evil usually looks like. Larger evils occur when "trivial" problems are ignored, allowing the deviant behavior to be normalized. Intentions are not relevant, because it's easy to rationalize away the craziest of behaviors.

"No one involved in an extralegal activity thinks of themselves as nefarious. I'm a businessman, okay?" - Quark, DS9 S6E25

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#234

Post by ncr100 »

jerf wrote: post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

Computer Science does not have the same heightened degree of Ethical Concern that exists in other sciences. E.g. genetic manipulation of human embryos is highly scrutinized, and action is taken when behavior that would corrupt future generations of humans is identified. Not so with CS.

CS Ethics is muted, often conflated with Corporate Ethics whose "Greed is good" line seems to have won out above other ethical mantras.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#235

Post by jamiek88 »

Crespyl wrote: post #131
ingenieroariel wrote: post #91

I have had to visit the #nixos channel in Freenode (IRC) lately on a computer with all tracking disabled and the Recaptcha that is usually just click and continue becomes a multi-minute endeavor finding street signs, cars and buses. You really get punished if you opt out of tracking.

I'm sure this isn't done, but I do have to wonder if it'd be possible to identify a user by their unique behaviors when interacting with the extended Recaptcha puzzles. Something like writing style analysis, but applied to patterns of mouse movement, click timings and positions, or recognition rates for particular types of problems.

If it can be done it will be done seems to be the moral of these stories so lets hope not.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#236

Post by StrangeDoctor »

mulmen wrote: post #104
jerf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the native app, albeit in beta, so you may not have it yet. You can turn on smile functionality in the app, but you must turn on all notifications. "Also what does Amazon have to do with SV?" Amazon is part of metaphorical Silicon Valley. So's Microsoft, for instance. Metaphorical Silicon Valley is too large to fit in literal Silicon Valley.

Is IBM included in metaphorical Silicon Valley? What about Expedia? Or Concur? Seems very arbitrary. Is metaphorical Silicon Valley only applicable to negative actions of tech companies or does it apply to all big tech companies? I searched for “metaphorical Silicon Valley” and didn’t see anything relevant. Also how did you get into this beta and where is the actual option? Is it under notifications? I’d prefer to us…

IBM is especially confusing because they actually have offices in SV.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#237

Post by _underfl0w_ »

corint wrote: post #74
gdulli wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens to me too, various opt-in nags on both desktop and mobile. Using google maps has become a chore for me. I used to like going to the site or the app and browsing around for fun to learn about a new place. Now I only use it when I absolutely need to.

I'm now trying to use OSMAnd wherever possible. If there's a location I can't use it to find, I'll revert to Google Maps (and click 'no' to the opt in nag). When home, I'll make sure to update OpenStreetMap to make their map more useful. I'm convinced that open data is the better option. Certainly, I'm happy to volunteer my time and effort to contribute to things like OSM (and Wikipedia), but I'm loathe to part with…

My biggest gripe with OsmAnd is the fact that plug-ins are actually part of the source code, meaning that I would need to recompile the entire project to accommodate, say, a plug-in that could pull in traffic data. That's my largest use case for maps apps - avoiding traffic on my lengthy commute.

There are some gross hacks to get traffic overlays on the map, but the navigation still chooses routes independently of that data (driving you right into traffic)

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#238

Post by noisem4ker »

vorticalbox wrote: post #160
jerf wrote: post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

Not just amazing Samsung is constantly bugging you to sign in with a Samsung account and that apps like galaxy store REQUIRE access to contacts and sms. Just to download an app..

I have never been bugged since I've set up my phone and disabled the bundled apps I didn't need. Galaxy S7 with Oreo.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#239

Post by smt88 »

ncr100 wrote: post #234
jerf wrote: post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

Computer Science does not have the same heightened degree of Ethical Concern that exists in other sciences. E.g. genetic manipulation of human embryos is highly scrutinized, and action is taken when behavior that would corrupt future generations of humans is identified. Not so with CS. CS Ethics is muted, often conflated with Corporate Ethics whose "Greed is good" line seems to have won out above other ethical mantra…

I wouldn't call these issues matters of computer science. They're just marketing and consumer psych, and they've existed as long as businesses have.

The only difference now is that computers have enabled a level of efficient manipulation that wasn't possible before.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#240

Post by reaperducer »

DontGiveTwoFlux wrote: post #181
sephoric wrote: post #134

Ethically I think the good old days of software products were superior to the current days of software services . Services are paid for by subscription or ads or selling data, so that they are forced to optimize for continued use. Products are sold as-is, with the hope that they are useful enough that enough people will buy them once and own it forever. It should work this way: you spend N months making a useful prod…

Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model. There were endless conversations about a support matrix and patching older versions for customers who refused to upgrade. We were hamstrung by old design decisions and backporting fixes making any change onerous. We couldn’t add value for new customers as fast because we spent a majority of the time supporting older customers. Now those older custom…

Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model.

I think that's one portion of how we ended up where we are now: The companies thinking more about what is easier for the company than the needs of the customer.

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