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New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

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Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#161

Post by samsolomon »

sephoric wrote: post #134

Ethically I think the good old days of software products were superior to the current days of software services . Services are paid for by subscription or ads or selling data, so that they are forced to optimize for continued use. Products are sold as-is, with the hope that they are useful enough that enough people will buy them once and own it forever. It should work this way: you spend N months making a useful prod…

On the other hand I think subscriptions have vastly improved the quality of software.

Having to win your customer's business every month or year forces the product to continue improving. If the product doesn't get better, then customers leave.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#162

Post by ErikVandeWater »

aljones wrote: post #96
mancerayder wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ad-tech industry has tapped into what can only be called -- and no offense to anyone here -- "virtue signalling." There's no doubt studies done on this, hence the new "controversial" sort of nature of some of the advertising. Who knew that Gillette and Nike were so interested in social issues, and not a bottom line PNL result. In the same way, perhaps, Amazon marketing teams found some research to suggest…

It is not a very conspicuous signal. I don't know which one of my friends use Amazon Smile. I don't think the dark pattern would work well if Amazon Smile was only social signalling. Seems to me it relies much more upon the fact that actual money is given to charities. Pretty gross of Amazon to add unrelated self serving conditions to such giving.

I think the question is whether we would prefer Amazon Smile to exist as it is or not exist at all.

Even if there is a forced advertising aspect, it makes the world better.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#163

Post by tossaccount123 »

jimmy1 wrote: post #61
tossaccount123 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fascinating how obviously smart people can rationalize their actions. Schmidt and Google claim to be "progressive" but that kind of rationale of "nothing to hide" would mean that every progressive movement would have been shut down in its early stages had this kind of tech and surveillance been available at the time because it went against what was currently judged as right by the people in power

What was the point of you pointing out Eric's claim to a particular political ideology after a statement of his intelligence? Are you somehow implying one is more virtuous / intelligent than another? If we changed that to conservatism does that your meaning or what you were trying to convey?

I was more pointing out how either side can hypocritically rationalize things that run counter to their supposed beliefs because they make money off being hypocrites.

Nobody thinks they're evil, people can rationalize all sorts of crazy behavior.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#164

Post by StavrosK »

stickfigure wrote: post #146
levesque wrote: post #4

I tried using Google Maps without search history turned on. It's basically a downgraded version. They tied saving locations with the search history, so it won't let you search for friends' contacts, set a home address, etc. Is it on purpose? I don't know, but I find it weird that they would tie some unrelated features together. Why does setting a Home address require search history?

This seems pretty reasonable to me, although perhaps they named the switch poorly. My guess is that the product manager is trying to provide a single simple "privacy fiend" setting. You apparently want fine-grained privacy controls ("save my personal locations, but not my search history"). It's reasonable to want that, but it seems awfully entitled (not you, but many others on this thread) to demand it. Especially si…

This is disingenuous and unreasonable. The setting is unnecessarily restrictive. It's simple:

"Do you want us to store your data on our servers?"

Answering "no" should mean you store it locally, not that you don't store it at all. If you tell Google not to save your search history on their servers, they just disable it completely, when they could just save it locally.

This is nowhere near a product problem. The setting is per-account, so it's not like it'd be disabled on one device and enabled on another, so they'd get some weird UX, they just like crippling their app to force you to give them data.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#165

Post by StavrosK »

OmarGonzalez wrote: post #140
aherz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As manipulative as Google can be, we should keep in mind that Google Maps is incredibly useful and we get to use it for "free". Yes we pay with our data and privacy and Google can do a better job of making that transparent but we can only get so upset when we don't get the full version of a product when we don't want to give our data.

Yeah no, I rather pay a fee for that

OSMAND is pretty good.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#166

Post by thisisweirdok »

kache_ wrote: post #6

They constantly berate you to deactivate no tracking preferences on google maps. When you're aware of this fact you start seeing it everywhere, not just on google. For example, on Pinterest they will berate you to sign up using highlighted buttons on land, and the x button is out of the way on the top right corner. This end result is due to product managers/devs looking at conversion rates and optimizing for whatever…

Yes. 100% this. Someone's just pushing pixels around looking for some numbers to increase without actually dealing with the experience like a human.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#167

Post by ranit »

jerf wrote: post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

> Silicon Valley has no intention of retraining itself in any manner.

Historically, no industry, once became major, intended to retrain itself to be more positive to the society. If any improvement happened, it was forced from outside.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#169

Post by DCKing »

sidibe wrote: post #71
IanCal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR/etc. absolutely deliver on this: > Frankly it's insulting to say that adults cannot decide for themselves how they want their data used All those laws really push is you have to actually let people know what you're using the data for, ask if you can (so that they're able to decide) and make sure you take care of it. It doesn't say you can't decide for yourself, it just makes it an actual decision.

GDPR does not allow you to trade services in return for using your data for ads. A website can't deny you service if you opt out of tracking, so EU has decided that business model should not be viable even if both parties agree.

> GDPR does not allow you to trade services in return for using your data for ads.

Yes it does. If users consent to it in a lawful way, close to everything is possible under GDPR.

> A website can't deny you service if you opt out of tracking, so EU has decided that business model should not be viable even if both parties agree.

As far as I can tell, this is based on some pessimistic reading of the law, and no clear jurisprudence is available in that area yet. It will likely be available soon, but this isn't as clear cut as you make it seem.

If the EU had decided that this business model should not be viable they could have clearly outlawed personalized ad tracking in its entirety in unambiguous terms. They have not done that at all.

Even so, personal tracking ads are still available for those who consent to it. Many, I expect, will like them. In the worst case (if jurisprudence decides you can't deny services for opt-out - which we will need to away before jumping to conlcusions), it will be a bit harder to gain as much revenue out of it per user because you need to go through the revolutionary step to ask your users if you can track them. You can still show contextual ads just fine though!

But really, consider it ethically. If it turns out people lose revenue because people decide against tracking - as they now need to be explicitly informed and given the decision - how can you really have issue with that?

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#170

Post by Phenomenit »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #78

Whenever you tap a link in the iOS YouTube app, it starts nagging you to download Chrome, or continue with the old boring Safari... There's a pre-checked switch at the bottom of the dialog that says "Ask me which app to use every time". Now, even if you uncheck the switch and choose Safari, they will only let you off the hook for around a day; after this cooldown period you're "offered" to download Chrome yet again,…

Same with the Gmail app. For the nth time I don't want to use chrome! So infuriating!
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