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EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

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Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#61

Post by Silhouette »

mpweiher wrote: post #26
Silhouette wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the Japanese and UK official positions are that in the event of Brexit severing these new ties via the EU, they want to implement a bilateral deal as quickly as possible that covers the same benefits as the EPA with possibilities for going further. Obviously various parties involved would prefer a more orderly transition, though. One somewhat ironic possible outcome if there is a hard Brexit is that the UK could…

Except the argument made by the Brexiteers is that the EU can't do trade deals and Britain would be able to do so much better and quicker outside. Hmm...

Sorry, I'm not very interested in debating subjective views of what more than 17 million people might have wanted. Little of value ever seems to result from such discussions.

All I'm saying is that the original comment by tonyedgecomb seems a bit pessimistic, because whatever happens with Brexit, either the UK will retain the benefits of the new EU arrangement or the UK and Japan have declared a very public intention to form an analogous agreement as quickly as possible to retain the same benefits for both parties.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#62

Post by smcl »

jmanderley wrote: post #29
blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Tough luck, the UK gave up its voice in the EU willingly. No one forced Brexit on you.

Well Brexit kind of is being forced upon the people Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted to remain (and, as Arethuza correctly noted, it's now likely that a majority of the UK population overall are against it anyway).

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#63

Post by nicoburns »

pavlov wrote: post #6
growlist wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then it IS apparently possible to have a free trade zone without freedom of movement.

Of course it is. The EU isn’t that, though. The withdrawal agreement negotiated by May does fulfill those criteria, but Brexiters still don’t like it — fancy that.

nobody likes the withdrawal agreement.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#64

Post by Tomte »

blibble wrote: post #53
mpweiher wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually: no. Not even close. 1) The backstop is just that: a backstop. It applies only if and as long as the "frictionless" arrangements for the NI border, which everyone wants and everyone has very publicly said they want, doesn't happen. So as soon as that happens, no more backstop. 2) UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) could…

this is a extremely naive view of the situation obviously there's no problem if you are of the belief that the EU would act fairly in the situation where a new workable friction-less trade technology/mechanism is created the ERG do not share this belief: their view is that if the withdrawal agreement is signed then the EU has no incentive to ever permit the UK to leave the temporary arrangement, as it would lose cont…

Well, if the UK side believes that the EU cannot be trusted, then there shouldn't be a deal at all.

Because there are always small details cropping up later that need to be fixed "fairly".

Unfortunately that fits very well within the "go whistle" stance, and that's why I don't really support any Brexit deal and think the UK should just crash out, consequences be damned.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#65

Post by barrkel »

Silhouette wrote: post #45
Tomte wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. You can't blame the EU for that obligation. I'm pretty sure that fifteen years ago, nobody would have thought that "let's keep the bombings" would be a coherent and respectable opinion. Things have changed.

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. The legal technicalities of that are debatable, but let's assume for this discussion that there exists a clear legal obligation to do so. Which specific obligation(s) under the GFA do you think would or would not be satisfied by which specific proposal(s) that have been made in relation to the NI/Ireland border?

We're not talking about law; we're talking about hearts and minds, identity, nationalism, the stuff that causes wars and keeps peace.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#66

Post by Tomte »

Silhouette wrote: post #45
Tomte wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. You can't blame the EU for that obligation. I'm pretty sure that fifteen years ago, nobody would have thought that "let's keep the bombings" would be a coherent and respectable opinion. Things have changed.

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. The legal technicalities of that are debatable, but let's assume for this discussion that there exists a clear legal obligation to do so. Which specific obligation(s) under the GFA do you think would or would not be satisfied by which specific proposal(s) that have been made in relation to the NI/Ireland border?

Well, I guess the IRA had always had a legal obligation not to kill people.

It hasn't stopped them. Maybe the view needs to be widened a bit.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#67

Post by isostatic »

porpoisely wrote: post #52
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'm glad the UK is a member of the EU so we can benefit from this.

EU has to allow the UK to leave first before the UK and Japan can negotiate a free trade agreement. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/26/an-seeks-early...

The EU doesn't have to allow the UK to leave, the UK has to decide to leave, the EU has nothing to do with it.

The trouble is if the UK leaves, it loses all the benefits of being in the EU.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#68

Post by entity345 »

growlist wrote: post #4
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'm glad the UK is a member of the EU so we can benefit from this.

So then it IS apparently possible to have a free trade zone without freedom of movement.

No-one ever claimed otherwise.

The EU is not a "free trade zone".

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#69

Post by barrkel »

blibble wrote: post #53
mpweiher wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually: no. Not even close. 1) The backstop is just that: a backstop. It applies only if and as long as the "frictionless" arrangements for the NI border, which everyone wants and everyone has very publicly said they want, doesn't happen. So as soon as that happens, no more backstop. 2) UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) could…

this is a extremely naive view of the situation obviously there's no problem if you are of the belief that the EU would act fairly in the situation where a new workable friction-less trade technology/mechanism is created the ERG do not share this belief: their view is that if the withdrawal agreement is signed then the EU has no incentive to ever permit the UK to leave the temporary arrangement, as it would lose cont…

If May had won a decent majority in the election, I think she would have gotten the backstop through, possibly even NI-only.

The all-UK backstop is an EU concession to the UK. The UK fought and asked for it, and other parties - e.g. France - are not in favour of it. It is not a plot to control the UK.

For example, it only binds the UK mainland to follow harmonized laws in effect at the beginning of the backstop, and not to track dynamic changes to the regulatory landscape. Lack of dynamic tracking means UK has a built-in and potentially growing advantage over the rest of the EU, should it ever remain in effect for long.

In any case, it's strongly in the UK's interest to have more integration than the backstop - to actually track closer to EU regulation than the backstop enforces - because the EU will continue to be the UK's single most significant economic partner, and the closest regulatory superpower. The UK doesn't have enough weight to get global suppliers to make special products for its domestic market if the regulations are different.

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