EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone • Hacker News Board

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#41

Post by mpweiher » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #25

pavlov wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. The EU isn’t that, though. The withdrawal agreement negotiated by May does fulfill those criteria, but Brexiters still don’t like it — fancy that.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Actually: no. Not even close.

1) The backstop is just that: a backstop. It applies only if and as long as the "frictionless" arrangements for the NI border, which everyone wants and everyone has very publicly said they want, doesn't happen. So as soon as that happens, no more backstop.

2) UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) couldn't actually come up with a single bit of evidence that this is actually so. So the EU said, hey, we believe you can come up with this, and we will do our best, but in the meantime we have to have some sort of guarantee in place for the off-chance that it doesn't work.

So now parts of UKGov and the press are screaming bloody murder that the backstop will keep the UK in shackles "forever". Huh? You told us that you have this way of making the border frictionless. If that's actually true, why is the backstop a problem? So were you lying to us?

3) The only requirement is for the frictionless arrangements/backstop to apply to Northern Ireland, in order not to endanger the Good Friday Agreement, which, incidentally, is a binding agreement voluntarily entered into by the UK (so effectively part of the UK constitution). Extending this to the whole of the UK was something UKGov demanded.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#42

Post by seren » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

pastor_elm wrote: post #37

Tohsh7po wrote: post #14

Will consumers benefit from it? Can Japanese order from amazon.de without customs charges and vice versa?

What would the Japanese need from the EU besides Airbus planes. Looks like a one-way street to me.

Not sure if you read the original article, but the exchange between Europe and Japan seems fairly balanced.

> EU businesses export €58 billion in goods and €28 billion in services to Japan every year. (snip) Japan exports €69 billion in goods and €18 billion in services to the EU annually.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#43

Post by hippich » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

While lack of tariffs is nice, as a small-time seller, complying with all these VAT, taxing rules (Germany added new requirement in 2019 to obtain some kind of new tax certificate which is not related to VAT certificate) makes it quite complicated from compliance point alone. But I guess it represents general attitude towards business in europe. Not sure how it is like in Japan.

[edit] What I mean is that it is all fine if you can justify hiring a consulting service or actually establish an office there. But if you are too small for that - local rules makes it quite hard to sell in this market. So while free-trade indeed a positive, it is positive only for larger sellers.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#44

Post by Reason077 » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:44 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #41

blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Actually: no. Not even close. 1) The backstop is just that: a backstop. It applies only if and as long as the "frictionless" arrangements for the NI border, which everyone wants and everyone has very publicly said they want, doesn't happen. So as soon as that happens, no more backstop. 2) UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) could…

"UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) couldn't actually come up with a single bit of evidence that this is actually so."

The Norway-Sweden border would be one example. Just like Ireland-Northern Ireland, they are not in a customs union but allow free movement of people.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#45

Post by Silhouette » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #34

blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. You can't blame the EU for that obligation. I'm pretty sure that fifteen years ago, nobody would have thought that "let's keep the bombings" would be a coherent and respectable opinion. Things have changed.

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement.

The legal technicalities of that are debatable, but let's assume for this discussion that there exists a clear legal obligation to do so.

Which specific obligation(s) under the GFA do you think would or would not be satisfied by which specific proposal(s) that have been made in relation to the NI/Ireland border?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#46

Post by arethuza » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

jmanderley wrote: post #29

blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Tough luck, the UK gave up its voice in the EU willingly. No one forced Brexit on you.

Perhaps worth reminding everyone that a lot of people in the UK (probably the majority by this point) are actually pro EU.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#47

Post by dmix » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

annapurna wrote: post #36

dmix wrote: post #21

Canada recently made a trade deal with the EU as well. Our country (Canada) hasn't been pushing harder enough for this IMO, considering how greatly we benefitted from NAFTA it should have been our top policy objective for the last couple decades. Modern countries would rather get lost in decades long mega-deals with 1000 conditions for every political crony connection / special-interest group ever than get an actual…

>There are still so many things that are ridiculously expensive in Canada for no rational (long term) benefit to either party assuming it was a real market. I cannot find the link but no surprises when there was a report (from one of the EU organizations) that we pay the highest cell phone fees.

The high cellphone + ISP fees in Canada are a result of the monopoly the ~2-3 telecom companies were given by government a few decades back to "accelerate" broadband and mobile infrastructure development.

The only positive tradeoff we've gotten out of decades of paying 25-50% more per month than most countries is that our networks have been cutting edge. We got 3g, 4g, etc before almost everyone. But I don't attribute this to the gov, their investment was long ago, but rather the competence of executives being smart enough to maintain their monopoly without falling into the trap of falling behind as many monopolies do before being trumped by economic progress/tech (ie, see the taxi monopoly lack of tech investment before Uber/Lyft), and via the massive margins they get out of their monopoly pricing providing plenty of capital investment to prevent any sort of competition.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#48

Post by edhelas » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

jashmatthews wrote: post #27

ousta wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ofc it is possible. the freedom of movement is just a way to dump bluecollar workforce into richer economies so that wages don't go up. educated workforce most of the time has legal ways to get a visa and has freedom of movement regardless of europe "freedom of movement"

Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands were all fairly evenly developed when they formed the original EEC in 1957.

Is that really true? Are we still fairly evenly developed and having the same economy now?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#49

Post by AnaniasAnanas » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

kingkawn wrote: post #28

blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Except the U.K. was an equal member of the EU and participated in the development of its rules

More than equal as far as I know.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#50

Post by gardaani » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

Tohsh7po wrote: post #14

Will consumers benefit from it? Can Japanese order from amazon.de without customs charges and vice versa?

Currently I can order cheap products (less than 20€) from China without customs fees or VAT. The shipping cost is around 1€. It means that it is cheaper to buy from China than from my local store. Unfortunately, that is about to change soon (customs fees for all products from China).

Having something like that between EU and Japan would definitely boost the trade.

Edit: I just checked and the same no customs fees rule applies already to Japan. I wonder if it is going to change at the same time as Chinese products get the customs fees.