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Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

nytimes.com

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Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#201

Post by atc »

kaolti wrote: post #200

I understand no one likes change, especially businesses. But complaining and trying blame and shame your audience because your business model is no longer viable is laughable. It is on THEM to figure what is next for journalism. That's not to say their point is not perfectly valid about fake news, it is. It's that the attitude of telling us it's our fault and we should change our ways is already a losing mindset.

The traditional way companies are forced to re-imagine/change is by consumers threatening the existence of incumbents by voting with their wallet. Guess what? In the global journalism landscape we now find ourselves, that really means _paying for nothing at all_ because _everything's free_.

If good journalism (i.e. not fake news) == people being payed to spend good time on a story, i.e. quality > quantity, then what's going to fix things other than cold, hard cash?

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#202

Post by nailer »

8ytecoder wrote: post #77

A few complaints I share with the other people in this thread: - It's not clear that even reputed newspapers like NYTimes/WaPo produce quality content consistently. As someone in tech I can clearly see what they get and what they don't. Extrapolating it - it's not at all clear they understand economics or foreign policy or policy impact or environmental concerns and how to address them ...etc. - Bias: every single on…

> It's not clear that even reputed newspapers like NYTimes/WaPo produce quality content consistently.

Example: Washington Post pushed the "Covington boys surround and intimidate native man" narrative that's been completely shattered by about 200 hours of video footage in the last week, and led to Twitter disabling the account that spread it, refutations (oddly enough from the NYT) and various apologies from those who came after the child on question.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#203

Post by martin_a »

ardy42 wrote: post #192
api wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe journalists should go out on their own via Patreon etc.?

> Maybe journalists should go out on their own via Patreon etc.? The problem with that is that the person with the byline isn't the only one that matters. Editorial oversight is equally important. You need the guy who's enthusiastically digging into a story and the guy who keeps his enthusiasm in check. I don't think those can be the same person.

We had quite a scandal with something like this over here in Germany some weeks ago.

A young journalist named Relotius who worked for "Der Spiegel" was found to have his stories a little bit too perfect. He acknowledged that some parts of his stories were "beautified" by him to make them more appealing to the readers.

So, while the core of a story might still be true, nobody really knows what happened and what was added by him. Nobody believes anything of these stories anymore after all.

It totally blew his career up (he was formerly found to be one of the "rising stars" of German journalism and had already got some awards for his work) and the Spiegel also found himself under heavy criticism, although they already have a concept in place, where another editor always fact-checks the other editors work.

So: Enthusiasm in journalists can go really wrong.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#204

Post by matt4077 »

Lio wrote: post #182
clappski wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any sources for what you’re saying? Specifically for your third paragraph.

Yes. Here is a report from OFCOM itself about a talk given by Ms White on the subject of diversity and how OFCOM can support a “positive change” agenda. [1] Here are details of Project Diamond a programme to enforce and monitor Ms White’s diversity agenda across the industry [2] Also [3] where Ms White speaks about punishing the BBC for not meeting her requested standards. [1] https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/lat…

The BBC striving for diversity in hiring != Th BBC pushing a “social justice agenda” in its content.

If you can’t see the distinction, I doubt you will find any journalism stooping to your level.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#205

Post by probably_wrong »

martin_a wrote: post #203
ardy42 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe journalists should go out on their own via Patreon etc.? The problem with that is that the person with the byline isn't the only one that matters. Editorial oversight is equally important. You need the guy who's enthusiastically digging into a story and the guy who keeps his enthusiasm in check. I don't think those can be the same person.

We had quite a scandal with something like this over here in Germany some weeks ago. A young journalist named Relotius who worked for "Der Spiegel" was found to have his stories a little bit too perfect. He acknowledged that some parts of his stories were "beautified" by him to make them more appealing to the readers. So, while the core of a story might still be true, nobody really knows what happened and what was ad…

> He acknowledged that some parts of his stories were "beautified" by him to make them more appealing to the readers.

I think you are underselling it. Quoting from Der Spiegel[1], "he included individuals in his stories who he had never met or spoken to, telling their stories or quoting them. (...) He also made up dialogue and quotes."

[1] http://m.spiegel.de/international/the-relotius-case-answers-...

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#206

Post by matt4077 »

jayalpha wrote: post #52
aggronn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just incredibly baffled by what you're proposing the solution is if its not a cultural shift towards paying for content? In an exclusively programmatic ad based market, the only long term winning strategy is to write click-bait and fake news. We should all be extremely concerned about what the writer is getting at. If you're going to call it whining, and say they need to change their business model, what should t…

"I'm just incredibly baffled by what you're proposing the solution is if its not a cultural shift towards paying for content?" I am not in the news business. Nor am I am in the diesel motor business. It is not my task to suggest solutions to a changing business environment. The NYC can now, thanks to the internet, deliver its content to a world wide audience. A paywall can be easily established. I pay for good news (…

Wether you want it or not, you are in the news business – as a Customer, that is.

Since that business is integral to democracy, it would seem we all have some stake in its success.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#207

Post by martin_a »

probably_wrong wrote: post #205
martin_a wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had quite a scandal with something like this over here in Germany some weeks ago. A young journalist named Relotius who worked for "Der Spiegel" was found to have his stories a little bit too perfect. He acknowledged that some parts of his stories were "beautified" by him to make them more appealing to the readers. So, while the core of a story might still be true, nobody really knows what happened and what was ad…

> He acknowledged that some parts of his stories were "beautified" by him to make them more appealing to the readers. I think you are underselling it. Quoting from Der Spiegel[1], "he included individuals in his stories who he had never met or spoken to, telling their stories or quoting them. (...) He also made up dialogue and quotes." [1] http://m.spiegel.de/international/the-relotius-case-answers-...

Oh, I'm sorry. I read into the story when it was more about things like "there was no music playing, although I wrote there was music and I didn't meet XY at that exact day". Didn't deeply look into it afterwards anymore. Thanks for pointing me to this, will read into it again.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#208

Post by sokoloff »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #184
dman wrote: post #131

I do pay for news, however one request I have for news providers is a greater emphasis on presenting news from all sides. Over the last 4-5 years most news providers have picked a political side (to a much greater extent than I recall in the past). This is true in both countries for which I follow news (India and the US). Given an event I can predict the coverage that venues will give it. This is troubling to me, and…

I would appreciate less emphasis on pretending to cover news from several angles. By doing so they imply that both sides are equally valid even when they're not. For instance I've seen them bring on a climate change denier to give the "other side" on a climate change story; anti vaxxers, et cetera. It's particularly bad when one side is willing to lie.

Related: https://twitter.com/klujypop/status/1018217609010012160?lang...

I see two modes to this. On factual matters (flat Earth, anti-vaxxers, chemtrails), I fully support the "figure it out and print/publish only the truth".

In opinion matters (how much tax should the poor/middle/rich pay, should public higher education be free/cheaper, should we implement UBI, etc), I'm far more interested in hearing from both/all sides, even at risk of some of the fringe viewpoints getting more airtime than currently.

"News" is not the simple reporting of facts, probably never was, and inherent in even the apparent reporting of facts is an interpretation of them (if nothing else by virtue of the facts you select to report upon and then emphasis you give them).

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#209

Post by Haga »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #184
dman wrote: post #131

I do pay for news, however one request I have for news providers is a greater emphasis on presenting news from all sides. Over the last 4-5 years most news providers have picked a political side (to a much greater extent than I recall in the past). This is true in both countries for which I follow news (India and the US). Given an event I can predict the coverage that venues will give it. This is troubling to me, and…

I would appreciate less emphasis on pretending to cover news from several angles. By doing so they imply that both sides are equally valid even when they're not. For instance I've seen them bring on a climate change denier to give the "other side" on a climate change story; anti vaxxers, et cetera. It's particularly bad when one side is willing to lie.

In that case it's the job of the journalist to keep the battle of facts going until one side falls silent or into denial rambling.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#210

Post by mulmen »

sosborn wrote: post #92
8ytecoder wrote: post #77

A few complaints I share with the other people in this thread: - It's not clear that even reputed newspapers like NYTimes/WaPo produce quality content consistently. As someone in tech I can clearly see what they get and what they don't. Extrapolating it - it's not at all clear they understand economics or foreign policy or policy impact or environmental concerns and how to address them ...etc. - Bias: every single on…

> At least present news as it is? This is exceptionally difficult. My favorite example is choosing which photo to run for a story. Let's say a photographer take photos of Trump at an event. He has a photo of Trump smiling, a photo of Trump frowning, a photo of Trump scowling and a photo of Trump laughing. Which one is correct? They are all technically correct because they happened, but they all convey different tones…

Then only run a photo if it helps explain the facts, otherwise who needs it?

If the photo supports the central truth of the piece then run it, otherwise you’re undermining yourself.

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