Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran • Hacker News Board

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#231

Post by zimablue » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

louisswiss wrote: post #100

makomk wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing about Brexit that Britain can agree on, it's that the deal that's being offered by the EU is awful. It lead to the largest House of Commons defeat for a key government bill in history, and it polls terribly with pretty much everyone. That's why the EU (and most of the British press) have been using the fact that May managed to trade some bad parts of their proposal with differently bad replacemen…

A helpful reminder that Britain leaving the EU and Britain getting a 'deal' with the EU are two separate (but related) events. Britain triggered Article 50 and decided to leave the EU. There's no deal necessary. From the EU's point of view (and a legal one), this isn't a negotiation, just a (sometimes less clearly defined) bureaucratic procedure. There is of course the question of what Britain's relationship to the E…

It's not the countries of the European Union's job to care about their historic ally and second largest power remaining stable and friendly in a time of oligarchs and autocracies? Put aside remain/leave/nationality, your statement is nonsensical.

No, the behavior of the EU does not align with the interests of its member states, that is the truth. As with Greece, so now with the UK. Crushed by unaccountable committee.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#232

Post by AsyncAwait » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #217

AsyncAwait wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original Iranian Revolution was a reaction to Western meddling and policies. The current regime is there because... The current regime is there precisely as a result of the Iranian Revolution. > Please provide a single citation for this statistic. This is an absurd statement. http://global-politics.eu/military-assistance-73-percent-wor... I guess I was off by 2%, it's 73% of the world's dictatorships. > The US…

>"The current regime is there precisely as a result of the Iranian Revolution" So you are defending you assertion by simply repeating it? You show a complete lack of of understanding of the power structure of Iran and the history of the revolution. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini was appointed to be Supreme Leader after the Iranian Revolution. He used the position to consolidate power and shape the judiciary. There curre…

> You show a complete lack of of understanding of the power structure of Iran and the history of the revolution.

No, what you seem to be trying to do is claim that because the regime that is the result of the Revolution did not deliver on all of its promises when the Revolution started, it is somehow a different regime?

Politicians often don't fulfill their promises. Does that make them different? Liars, deceptive manipulators maybe, but they're still them. The reason they were even able to consolidate power was as a result of the revolution that put them there, which is separate from if they delivered on it.

You wouldn't claim that Barack Obama is some different president, or an illegitimate one, because he did not deliver on all of his campaign promises would you?

> You link is laughable - Vietnam, Thailand, Jordan, Afghanistan, Ethiopia are all listed in that chart and none of them are dictatorships.

They're not exactly 'free' countries, are they now? Authoritarian countries would be a better title for you perhaps?

> So an attorney, actor, radio commentator and disk jockey compiled some images from social media and "the internet." Brilliant. Perhaps you might read more critically.

This is based on the Freedom House report of non free countries, it's not some data that the author of the piece made up. In fact there are other reports about it, this is literally just the first link I grabbed.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#233

Post by BeetleB » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #205

BeetleB wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Iran's "own destiny" isn't a positive one, so let's not romanticize it. It's probably more positive than a number of the US's allies, and it is a valid question as to why Iran is the one being picked on. Everything you say is as true and more of Saudi Arabia. And much of it is also more true for Pakistan. In the latter country, a huge portion of the population literally cheer the assassination of a governor who prom…

Please list the terrorist organizations that Pakistan funds and supplies that have a very significant destabilizing impact on its neighbors.

>Please list the terrorist organizations that Pakistan funds and supplies that have a very significant destabilizing impact on its neighbors.

Please list how many politicians in Iran are assassinated by their own people, and cheered for it, for opposing blasphemy or apostasy legislation, and for defending minority rights.

It's quite notable how you focus on only one aspect of my comment, and for only one country.

It's also notable on how you appear to think the standards you set are the relevant ones, and don't address others.

As for the list you asked for, I'll let folks from Afghanistan and India answer. It's also quite accessible from the perspective of a Google search. I do not want to be drawn deeply into the conversation, as in my past experience, it always devolves into "No, that's not a terrorist organization. Yes, that is."

If destabilizing a region is a legitimate metric, the US should consider sanctioning themselves. It's silly to accuse Iran of interference of neighbors when the US travels far across continents and invades two countries.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#234

Post by close04 » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

chris_overseas wrote: post #67

grecy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I keep hearing the most wonderful things about the people of Sudan, I can't wait to get there soon and discover for myself!

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. I returned from Sudan recently [0] and it is a fascinating country full of wonderful people and rich in culture - you will love visiting there! The Sudanese continue to suffer badly economically however, partly as a result of being on the US "State Sponsors of Terrorism" list [0] even though I firmly believe they no longer deserve to be there. Sudan still has many problems to…

I guess the votes come based on whether you assume he's being serious or sarcastic and the current opinion you hold of Sudan.

It is hard to judge when made over an impersonal channel like a plain text comment and most people won't check grecy's profile to draw the correct conclusion: not a trace of sarcasm.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#235

Post by adventured » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

anonu wrote: post #32

As America steps back from the world stage, we will see more alliances being forged that exclude the USA. These plans of dissociation have been in motion for some time now. I think two ruinous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have caused a shift in American foreign policy that we are now starting to see play out more frequently. This will continue for many decades.

> As America steps back from the world stage, we will see more alliances being forged that exclude the USA.

That's all a fantasy though. The US isn't stepping back from the world stage. Its $20.5 trillion economy is growing twice as fast as the EU's smaller economy. Its $700 billion military isn't going to be reduced in size. The USD is as strong as a global standard as it has been in the last 40 years, it has no serious currency challenger (including the Yuan).

The US isn't stopping / abandoning trade. The US isn't leaving NATO. The US isn't reducing its economic or military heft. The US isn't leaving the UN or the security council and giving up its permanent seat. The US isn't ending immigration in any regard. Few of the things people pretend are happening re a step-back & isolationism, are actually happening.

Germany + UK + France = $9.5 trillion in economic output, with the combination persistently lagging behind the US in output growth. The global alternatives to the US are all growing weaker, not stronger, with one exception: China. The EU isn't better off today than it was in ~2005, it's weaker.

Trump is gone in 2-6 years. He's opposed by nearly the entire political system when it comes to isolationist policies. There is no actual step back occuring and there isn't going to be one. Trump is a fluke one-off as a politician. The next president - which will be a typical politician from inside the system - is guaranteed to follow the same script every other president has since WW2 when it comes to the US global engagement and power projection. When people write that there is a step-back occuring, it's a projection on their part of what they would like to see happen (it often involves an emotion-based fantasy that the US will soon collapse and be humbled as a superpower).

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#236

Post by InitialLastName » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #190

InitialLastName wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strikes are really difficult when you've developed a culture of consumerism and permanent debt trapping big chunks of the population into wage slavery. It's even harder when, at the same time, you put your thumb firmly on one side of the business/labor relations scale by pushing at-will employment and right to work efforts.

I don't disagree with any of that. Will you argue any of that is going to change if we continue to prefer the safety of strong words over decisive action and sacrifice?

Not while people keep electing "outsiders" to "clean up" the government. Turns out that process tends to further entrench corporate interests.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#237

Post by thatfrenchguy » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

dunpeal wrote: post #225

anc84 wrote: post #48

We should have embargos on the US for pursuing a climate change program that destroys the planet.

Do you also advocate for an embargo of China, which pollutes at over twice the rate of the US? How about embargo of the EU, which currently pollutes at roughly the same rate? Did you know that energy production in the US is overall more environmentally friendly than in Germany, for example?

The US has one of the highest CO2 per capita of the OECD. Germany emits half the CO2 per capita that the US does.

Also, Chinese people don’t drive stupid big SUV and trucks while running the AC on full blast all summer.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#238

Post by nickik » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #202

nickik wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US position with Iran has LITERALLY NOTHING to do with gener lines, or causalities or export of terrorism. The allies that the US works with to contain Iran are worse in every single category you mention. Claiming the moral high ground over Iran is embracing and only works for people who don't have a clue about the middle east. Iran has complied with an international process according to international law after b…

"treated since 1979" - the US should have treated them well while holding American hostages? Is that what you're claiming here? It has to do with all the things I've stated. And stating that "Iran never had a program to build nuclear weapons" is just nonsensical. They may no longer be pursuing it, but you're conflating many things. > "Iran and six world powers known as the P5+1 (China, France, Germany, Russia, the Un…

I just meant since the government changed.

> It has to do with all the things I've stated. And stating that "Iran never had a program to build nuclear weapons" is just nonsensical. They may no longer be pursuing it, but you're conflating many things.

No. I am not. Iran never had nuclear weapons program. That is a fact. At the very most they had a program that did some basic research to understand how you would even build a bomb, far away from what we would consider a nuclear weapons program.

> https://www.armscontrol.org

The fact is that Iran didn't want to an enrichment program, they asked France to do it for them, with all enriched uranium being controlled by France and in full view of international supervision.

It was the US who blocked this move by France and did not allow that to happen. Only then did Iran start to invest in enrichment facilities.

The ACA is a lobby group that spreads their point of view as fact.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#239

Post by devmunchies » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #135

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We, the people, are pretty powerless here. Most US americans have been voting for Democrats or Republicans or not at all for decades. Of course the politics remain the same: Wars and politics that favor the richest. Please, vote for the Green Party or another reasonable party in 2020.

The green party has terrible candidates and often I disagree with their policies. I'm not going to vote for someone just because they're different from the establishment if they have positions I find ridiculous.

Its pretty well known among environmentalists that the American green party isn't "green" enough. Its not a truly environmentalist party that puts environmental issues above human issues. A environmental party must be anti-consumerism and anti-materialism. It should be against growing the human economy but instead making it more efficient. That means doing hard things that hurt human appetites/sensibilities but are better for the planet (ie. limited human migration, decreasing imports).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_ecology

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#240

Post by porpoisely » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

nkozyra wrote: post #5

Good. I don't know how much longer Americans are going to buy the boogiemen we keep getting fed. Sovereign nations under the the U.S.' thumb, not being able to control their own destiny only works so long as we're complacent. I sense we're growing tired of war for war's sake, leery of ideological battles built for future blowback down the road. We see enough people profiting from these wars to wonder how much global…

We are going to keep buying the boogeyman as long as the media and politicians sells it to us.

One of the only things both republicans and democrats can agree on is war. They will debate and argue about children drinking lead in Flint, but bombing some small country on the other side of the world and increasing the defense budget and lining the pockets of the defense contractors will always have bipartisan support.

One of the only things both foxnews and cnn/msbnc/nytimes/wapo/etc can agree on is war. They'll call each other fake news and poison the minds of the american people with divisive rhetoric for ratings, but when it comes to war, they'll set aside their differences and speak in one united pro-war voice.