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Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

thepointsguy.com

251–260 of 365 posts

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit like opening your car door while still driving 60 mph... Nobody does that in normal operation. You don't open and shut a door when you notice it didn't fully close because you can hear the wind?

At 60 mph? No. I listen to the wind until I get a safe opportunity to properly close it. (I might try to pull it more shut while moving. But not open it.)

Good luck even opening it far enough if you're going at 60 ...

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always love it when you have worked on something for months and someone new comes by and says "Why don't you just X?".

The best part is when your project is running late or having issues, and the non-technical manager plans a meeting with all the other dead-weight people. "Explain the problem to us, and since we know absolutely nothing about it, our stupid questions might give you new insights". Facepalm.

Exactly. "Let's all take a step back" or "I'd like to challenge that". Makes you sound insightful while knowing nothing.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the same Wikipedia article that was just linked: > "The aircraft suffered an airspeed indicator problem for its last four flights, including the flight to Denpasar. Thinking that it would fix the problem, the engineers in Bali then replaced one of the aircraft's AoA sensors, but the problem persisted on the penultimate flight [...] [the crew] recorded a twenty-degree difference between the readings of the left A…

Those are prior flights. The aircraft was fully repaired: > The chief executive officer of Lion Air, Edward Sirait, said the aircraft had a "technical issue" on Sunday night, but this had been addressed in accordance with maintenance manuals issued by the manufacturer. Engineers had declared that the aircraft was ready for takeoff on the morning of the accident So you still haven't supported your extraordinary claim…

> we know it was safe on takeoff

Or rather, as airworthy as any other MAX flying around.

Not sure why you're being downvoted, as I haven't seen any evidence linked contradicting what you said.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#254
post #189

I think the auto shutdown of engines in flight, in case it senses reverse thrust, is a great design. The 787 is a replacement for my 767 (currently a pilot on the aircraft) and in 1991 a Lauda Air 767 suffered a failure in one of its thrust reverser and it became activated during cruise. The aircraft was destroyed in flight. The thrust reversers should not activate during flight (a air/ground sensors prevents that) b…

it's a great fail safe but not if you lose your engines in flight and can't relight them like in the article.

> it's a great fail safe but not if you lose your engines in flight and can't relight them like in the article.

It is still better to lose all engines than to have thruster reversers deploy in unsafe situations. You may stall without an engine at low altitude in a landing configuration, but you should still be able to glide for some time. Deploy reversers (or even a single reverser) and you fall like a brick very quickly.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19961031-...

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the reverser could rip the engine off the wing, it wouldn't be safe to engage on the ground. Just thought that was worth pointing out. A reverser only redirects thrust, and only generates about 60% of max thrust pushing backwards. It's only on for a limited time on the ground because under a certain speed, you run the risk of blowing FOD into the intake path, putting the engine at risk. I'm not aware of any reason…

The cruising airspeed of an airplane is faster than its landing speed. I don't know if that alone is enough to rip the engine off the wing, but it's something that it sounds like you did not consider in making your point. [EDIT remove "roughly speaking an order of magnitude"]

It seems unlikely that a jet engine could rip itself off the wing in any scenario based on thrust alone. The forces involved are not that large.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#256
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why not throttling instead of switching off then?

Overspeed protection takes place once everything else has failed. The engine controls have already attempted to throttle down and such. If that doesn't work then overspeed kicks in.

Adding on to this... things inside an engine happen FAST. Too much energy can spin up the turbines to the point of failure in milliseconds.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not very typical for pilots to push buttons quickly. Especially not the thrustreversers and engine and flight controls. But it is entirely possible that nobody pulled the reversers while still airborne in 9 years, because it's a very strange thing to do. A bit like opening your car door while still driving 60 mph... Nobody does that in normal operation.

A bit like opening your car door while still driving 60 mph... Nobody does that in normal operation. You don't open and shut a door when you notice it didn't fully close because you can hear the wind?

In airplanes, a lot of procedures and diagnostics involve not re-trying a failed action, not touching anything before reading a check list, nor flipping a switch twice if it didn't work the first time.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#258
post #189

I think the auto shutdown of engines in flight, in case it senses reverse thrust, is a great design. The 787 is a replacement for my 767 (currently a pilot on the aircraft) and in 1991 a Lauda Air 767 suffered a failure in one of its thrust reverser and it became activated during cruise. The aircraft was destroyed in flight. The thrust reversers should not activate during flight (a air/ground sensors prevents that) b…

it's a great fail safe but not if you lose your engines in flight and can't relight them like in the article.

Having altitude and being able to glide in is a hell of a lot better than one of your engines reversing and throwing your plane into an irrecoverable spin.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#259
post #200
post #189

I think the auto shutdown of engines in flight, in case it senses reverse thrust, is a great design. The 787 is a replacement for my 767 (currently a pilot on the aircraft) and in 1991 a Lauda Air 767 suffered a failure in one of its thrust reverser and it became activated during cruise. The aircraft was destroyed in flight. The thrust reversers should not activate during flight (a air/ground sensors prevents that) b…

There is Airplane pilot on HN? I am surprised, did you make a career switch from IT?

Modern planes are flying server farms. How is this surprising?

I've worked with several pilots in my career. Unless you have a ton of experience, IT pays better than flying.

Re: Boeing 787 Suffers Rare Dual Engine Failure on Landing

#260

Boeing’s answer seems to say if you accidentally pull the thrust reverser lever before the aircraft is on the ground it just force shuts down the engines. That sounds like an odd safety override. Surely a better solution would be to just not activate reverse thrust. Unlike car engines a jet engine can’t just be quickly restarted if it accidentally shuts down. It typically takes 30-60 seconds to get going. This and ea…

I think you've misunderstood. The system you're describing kicks in when (a) the aircraft is on the ground, (b) commanded thrust is idle and (c) the engines continue to produce thrust above idle (when there is an overthrust condition). Boeing does not cut power to the engines to prevent reverse thrust application in air - that would be absurd. On this particular occasion the system is thought to have malfunctioned in…

I thought that they did as a mitigation for uncommanded thruster reverser application.
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