Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip • Hacker News Board

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#681

Post by xster » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

B-Con wrote: post #32

> That's right: the customer's tip doesn't get added to the worker's check — it just gets deducted from what Instacart pays. In other words, up-front tips go to Instacart, not to the worker. My understanding is that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not allow for employers to whithold tips.[0] Gratuity/tip is a legally recognized concept. You can't just throw the word in your app and do what you want with the money i…

Also the increasingly common practice where a seller takes your money, wrongs you in the most blatant way, such as just not sending half of your order (Instacart), charges you for wasting your time and never providing any service (Uber) and when you complain, they keep your money and give you their Monopoly money instead.

I feel like for someone somewhere in the attorney general's office, prosecuting these should be someone's full time tax paid job.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#682

Post by aagha » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

WTF is going on?!

Some engineer somewhere decided or was told: Hey if someone gets a big tip, lets consider that as part of their pay and not pay they what's due. And then they just blindly do it?!

I can understand that an engineer might just be following requirements, but _someone_ made that decision--probably a PM, or does this go higher than that?

It seems that companies (FB, Google, etc.) are almost going out of their way to be evil!

We need the equivalent of a "known to do evil" blacklist: companies and employees known to have been working on specific products/projects should be black-balled:

You wrote a VPN to collect information off people's phones? Good luck getting work with another tech company. You wrote/designed functionality to get kids to play games that require money and is hidden from their parents? Screw you. You wrote/designed a feature that said that people should be screwed out of their wage because they got a big tip? F you.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#683

Post by xster » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

rafiki6 wrote: post #390

mxfh wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping is the "trickle down"-myth's small scale cousin. It doesn't only take away responsibility of paying, but adds emotional and mental load cost to the customer. It's hilarious that people accept that in exchange for an illusory level of control (you being the mini manager/boss of your service task) over quality of service.

I think many people just haven't traveled to for e.g. many European countries where tipping culture is mostly non-existent because over there people the service industry receive appropriate wages and the prices of things are adjusted accordingly. The quality of service is good, and the people working seem much happier. They have a guaranteed income for their time.

Not being flippant but as a genuine question, besides just bribery, remnants of colonialism or heavy tourism destinations for North Americans, is a tipping culture existent anywhere besides North America?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#By_region

We love traveling and I have yet to see local tipping culture anywhere besides North America (besides cheeky let's-get-more-money-from-the-foreign-tourist type).

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#684

Post by dang » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

atom-morgan wrote: post #492

dang wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We detached this generic ideological subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19030072 and marked it off-topic.

This is much more substantive than a lot of other comments in that thread. How often does this "detaching" happen on HN? Edit: Oh, YC backed Instacart. Got it :)

Actually, we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved, even though (or rather because) it's the cheapest trick in the book to accuse us of otherwise. However, that doesn't mean we don't moderate at all. A generic ideological "yay markets" vs. "yay unions" tangent discussion quickly becomes predictable, tedious, and off topic. Marking it such has nothing particular to do with YC or Instacart.

It's trivial to verify that this is standard HN moderation:

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#685

Post by fwip » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #674

fwip wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person was actually paid $10.80 - $10 of which was tip, and $0.80 was from Instacart.

Yes? That doesn't meet my expectations. I'd expect them to paid whatever reasonable wage ($12/hr? $15/hr?) and then get the $10 on top of that.

It doesn't meet my expectations either, but your phrasing made me worry that you thought their total compensation was $0.80.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#686

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 8:10 PM UTC

ultraluminous wrote: post #617

thaumasiotes wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud! That would be a case of the server getting the money and deciding to buy something for the cook. Whereas in an actual tip-sharing restaurant, the server gets his share of the tip pool after the cook's share has already been taken out. He doesn't get a choice in the matter. This is generally not what the people givin…

The point being made that you're repeatedly ignoring is that that in this scenario the staff gets the tips. Only the staff. In no point in time, whether it's individual tips or tips sharing, does the restaurant receive any part of the tips pool.

From the tipper's perspective, what would the difference be between the restaurant garnishing the waiter's tips vs the restaurant garnishing the waiter's tips and then giving some to the cook?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#687

Post by kakarot » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

GreenToad5 wrote: post #669

kakarot wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no doubt it was considerably illegal, however I would have been terminated immediately in a town where finding another job without a vehicle or parents would have been impossible, and since I was living on my own as a minor at this time it was pretty important that I maintained income. After several more undoubtedly illegal maneuvers by a new manager to fire me and other waitstaff so that he could replace them…

You all are being duped into contrived outrage. The example given in the OP link is very misleading and it is quite obviously cherry picking (to spark emotion) and is actually an outright lie. The truth is that Insticart actually pays a $10 minimum per delivery (this isn't even mentioned in the OP link) So how did this person make 80 cents an hour? The delivery was 0.7 miles and took 69 minutes. Ironically, under Ins…

What the hell does that have to do with my comment and my own experiences?

I worked these jobs while trying to support and educate myself so that I could get a better-paying job.

At the same time, if 6-8 hours a day of Instacart deliveries isn't enough to provide you with an apartment, tuition money and food & entertainment for a wife and two children, then it's a service that shouldn't exist and it is only propped up by investor cash.

Because that is what minimum wage was originally meant to provide for an individual in America, before nearly a century of propaganda and misdirection convinced people like you that someone on minimum wage is lazy and doesn't deserve enough money to eat healthily, rent a decent apartment and have enough cash for some entertainment, and generally live better than someone in a third-world country, much less afford something like an annual vacation or car payments.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#688

Post by LyndsySimon » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 8:25 PM UTC

dependsontheq wrote: post #616

LyndsySimon wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that in jest, but this sort of thing really is a potential use for the tech. Imagine a widget where every link in the supply chain is paid proportionately, instead of each layer trying to skim what they can. If a salesperson sells the product for 10% more, they get 10% more commission - and the distributor gets 10%, and the manufacturer, and the producer of the raw materials, and the transportation provider,…

Their jobs might have different value for this to happen at all. Usually that’s exactly what the market does, assign value. The 10% margin sounds in general fair but depends on so many factors, margin on what? Production, Research, Investment ?

I don't disagree, but I see nothing wrong with using a tool like that if everyone agrees it's a good idea. It needn't be the entire supply chain, either - individual portions could set up profit-sharing arrangements using contracts.

I don't know if it would actually be used, but if you wanted to do something like this, a blockchain would make a good deal of sense; especially if payment for the finished product was made through the same mechanism.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#689

Post by kakarot » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 8:27 PM UTC

redblacktree wrote: post #677

brianpgordon wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice try trolling. Nobody can possibly be this shitty.

My guess is paid PR for Instacart.

Considering they couldn't even spell Instacart right, I dunno...

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#690

Post by fencepost » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

throwaway415415 wrote: post #457

mruts wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it should start with you right? Are you willing to never tip again in your entire life? If so, let us know how it goes (or maybe is going?) Or, alternatively, maybe you don't live in a country with a tipping culture. And if so, then tipping doesn't really affect you. People like to tip. I like to tip. Waiters and waitresses like to be tipped. My wife used to work as a waitress and would clear over $300 a night i…

It does. Most people I know in SF, including me, don't tip. Waiters here are way more used to it and don't necessarily expect it.

If you're in places where non-tipping is expected and the staff are paid based on that, fine. If you're doing this in places where staff pay is determined based on expectation of tips, you may be an exemplar of what people hate about Silicon Valley dudebro culture.

It's entirely possible that restaurants in SF have shifted to non-tipping and jacked their prices up to pay higher base wages just because it's so expensive to live anywhere in that area, but in most of the country people in traditionally-tipped positions are often paid significantly below minimum wage (as low as $2.13/hour as the federal minimum, many states are higher). In California the tipped minimum wage at $11/hour is only $1/hour lower than the regular minimum wage, so not tipping may have less impact.

Numbers taken from https://www.minimum-wage.org/