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Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

nytimes.com

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Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#31

Post by allemagne »

porpoisely wrote: post #20

This article exemplifies everything wrong with the nytimes and journalism today. 1. It's asking me a question. Don't ask me a question. 2. It doesn't add anything new or informative. Pretty much a rehash of everything that's been stated repeatedly for the past 8 years. 3. Boring standard propaganda. It's interesting how the BRI is covered by pro-china, anti-china and "neutral" ( if possible ) propaganda organizations…

You're criticizing this article as though it was intended to be groundbreaking and authoritative, and then expand your criticisms to the entire New York Times and an entire profession.

That may or may not be a fair assessment, but I'm not really convinced. This is a New York Times Magazine article with flashy pictures. It's entertainment for people who are interested in geopolitics. It's not Ben Mauk's fault that he's an American and his piece shot to the front page of Hacker News.

What I think you're looking for is a really good Wikipedia article or research study on BRI.

Unless you can expand on why this piece is "propaganda" or what exactly the article got wrong, why not enjoy the piece (or not) as a travel diary with the BRI as a broad geopolitical context?

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#32

Post by magduf »

siffland wrote: post #30
ksdale wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have said the same thing about China 50 years ago. Places aren’t appropriate for investment until they are, and then the change that can take place is staggering.

I agree, the disdain China has for the US and the Tiawan issues and other factors are causing this administration to do some crazy things (it will probably change in 2 years when elections are held again in the U.S.). I mean we (U.S. citizens) are being advised not to travel to China for risk of being detained and prevented from leaving the country (I mean they execute drug traffickers from Canada, pretty harsh). I d…

We have pretty good relations with India, yes, but then why haven't western countries been building factories there for the last couple decades? I think it's because, despite the good relations and India's democratic government (as opposed to China's authoritarian one), India has severe internal problems that make it unattractive as a location for factories. India has long had an extremely bad problem with corruption, namely. You can't get anything done there without a bribe.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#33

Post by redahs »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #23
magduf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems like we aren't only losing the fight for global hegemony but barely actively taking part. We've actually shot ourselves in the foot with a shotgun in the last few years. We're doing everything we can to cripple ourselves and let other powers take over.

The U.S. lost claim to leadership with Vietnam, and then doubled down with Iraq. It is common in history for the most powerful leaders to mess things up. It is the cycle of life.

The U.S. lost Vietnam because rural farmers thought U.S. troops were working for land lords. Land lords would take control of rural areas and start charging farmers rent after it was cleared of Viet Cong. There is a similar problem in Afghanistan: the Afghan government raises most of its revenues from sales and excise taxes, and doesn't tax land owners on property privately seized from rural residents. Since it doesn't tax land and has not centrally issued titles to rural residents, it doesn't have good records on land ownership and can't prevent private land seizures effectively.

These are not inevitable problems. Our politicians just don't understand the difference between land and capital and have undermined U.S. efforts to promote land reform in Asia after it worked so well in Japan.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#34

Post by mc32 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #23
magduf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems like we aren't only losing the fight for global hegemony but barely actively taking part. We've actually shot ourselves in the foot with a shotgun in the last few years. We're doing everything we can to cripple ourselves and let other powers take over.

The U.S. lost claim to leadership with Vietnam, and then doubled down with Iraq. It is common in history for the most powerful leaders to mess things up. It is the cycle of life.

I agree with Iraq, but Vietnam, as messy as it was, I think, was necessary. Even Vietnamese I’ve spoken to believe it was the right thing. Sometimes things are clear cut and easy, other times they are messy and problematic.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#35

Post by magduf »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #23
magduf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems like we aren't only losing the fight for global hegemony but barely actively taking part. We've actually shot ourselves in the foot with a shotgun in the last few years. We're doing everything we can to cripple ourselves and let other powers take over.

The U.S. lost claim to leadership with Vietnam, and then doubled down with Iraq. It is common in history for the most powerful leaders to mess things up. It is the cycle of life.

Yep, every powerful nation or empire in the past has collapsed or faded in significance after some time. The question is, in our case, will it be a rapid collapse or a slow fade (like the British empire), and when?

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#36

Post by mc32 »

redahs wrote: post #33
mensetmanusman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. lost claim to leadership with Vietnam, and then doubled down with Iraq. It is common in history for the most powerful leaders to mess things up. It is the cycle of life.

The U.S. lost Vietnam because rural farmers thought U.S. troops were working for land lords. Land lords would take control of rural areas and start charging farmers rent after it was cleared of Viet Cong. There is a similar problem in Afghanistan: the Afghan government raises most of its revenues from sales and excise taxes, and doesn't tax land owners on property privately seized from rural residents. Since it doesn…

Interestingly, before it went downhill, US advisors told the S. Viet gov that the one thing they had to do to stave off revolution was land redistribution, in the least in the Mekong Delta, (I believe land redistribution was done to some extent in SK), but the S Vietnamese refused, and so the NVA had an “in”.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#37

Post by Joe-Z »

allemagne wrote: post #31
porpoisely wrote: post #20

This article exemplifies everything wrong with the nytimes and journalism today. 1. It's asking me a question. Don't ask me a question. 2. It doesn't add anything new or informative. Pretty much a rehash of everything that's been stated repeatedly for the past 8 years. 3. Boring standard propaganda. It's interesting how the BRI is covered by pro-china, anti-china and "neutral" ( if possible ) propaganda organizations…

You're criticizing this article as though it was intended to be groundbreaking and authoritative, and then expand your criticisms to the entire New York Times and an entire profession. That may or may not be a fair assessment, but I'm not really convinced. This is a New York Times Magazine article with flashy pictures. It's entertainment for people who are interested in geopolitics. It's not Ben Mauk's fault that he'…

>Unless you can expand on why this piece is "propaganda" or what exactly the article got wrong, why not enjoy the piece (or not) as a travel diary with the BRI as a broad geopolitical context?

Because it does not market itself as such. It makes some bold claim to answer a question that's probably interesting to a lot of people follwing BRI-developments. Instead it's 'I've visited the Kazakhstan-China border and talked to a few people', but I guess that headline doesn't attract as many clicks.

EDIT: Not the GP and I don't want to claim that this is propaganda.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#38

Post by magduf »

mc32 wrote: post #36
redahs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. lost Vietnam because rural farmers thought U.S. troops were working for land lords. Land lords would take control of rural areas and start charging farmers rent after it was cleared of Viet Cong. There is a similar problem in Afghanistan: the Afghan government raises most of its revenues from sales and excise taxes, and doesn't tax land owners on property privately seized from rural residents. Since it doesn…

Interestingly, before it went downhill, US advisors told the S. Viet gov that the one thing they had to do to stave off revolution was land redistribution, in the least in the Mekong Delta, (I believe land redistribution was done to some extent in SK), but the S Vietnamese refused, and so the NVA had an “in”.

Sounds like one of those scenarios where the side we picked to support was itself corrupt, so the general population saw no good reason to support our side over the opposing side.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#39

Post by mc32 »

magduf wrote: post #38
mc32 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, before it went downhill, US advisors told the S. Viet gov that the one thing they had to do to stave off revolution was land redistribution, in the least in the Mekong Delta, (I believe land redistribution was done to some extent in SK), but the S Vietnamese refused, and so the NVA had an “in”.

Sounds like one of those scenarios where the side we picked to support was itself corrupt, so the general population saw no good reason to support our side over the opposing side.

Yes, but it’s not so much the side we “picked” but the team that was given to us. Just as the Soviets often times had no choice but to work with truly bad people.

Re: Can China Turn the Middle of Nowhere into the Center of the World Economy?

#40

Post by malandrew »

allemagne wrote: post #31
porpoisely wrote: post #20

This article exemplifies everything wrong with the nytimes and journalism today. 1. It's asking me a question. Don't ask me a question. 2. It doesn't add anything new or informative. Pretty much a rehash of everything that's been stated repeatedly for the past 8 years. 3. Boring standard propaganda. It's interesting how the BRI is covered by pro-china, anti-china and "neutral" ( if possible ) propaganda organizations…

You're criticizing this article as though it was intended to be groundbreaking and authoritative, and then expand your criticisms to the entire New York Times and an entire profession. That may or may not be a fair assessment, but I'm not really convinced. This is a New York Times Magazine article with flashy pictures. It's entertainment for people who are interested in geopolitics. It's not Ben Mauk's fault that he'…

> It's entertainment for people who are interested in geopolitics.

And that's the crux of the problem. This entertainment geopolitics is no longer confined to just places like the NYTimes magazine. It has basically blended in with all "journalism" today because it's great for engagement. In the best case scenario, the hallmarks of good journalism like informing the reader with facts and being impartial are mere afterthoughts.

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