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'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

reuters.com

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Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#71

Post by FakeComments »

pjc50 wrote: post #63
FakeComments wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a deep straw man of what I said, to the point of being non-constructive mocking. You’re just being dishonest to claim I suggested trusting the spy agencies. Rather, I pointed out that they have a real mission, and they’re going to spend effort accomplishing it. But their mission isn’t to own every device — it’s to own a select few, probably on the order of hundreds or thousands a year. So, if we create a mecha…

I think the underlying point is "which intelligence agencies would be allowed to compromise devices like this"?

The ones courts which governed the relevant company were willing to issue warrants on behalf of — that is, those our regular legal and political systems decide on.

For a big multinational like Apple, that’s probably a fair number. But it’s also harder to hide they’re doing that, and let’s us bring pressure on them politically for their political misdeeds. In the end, it’ll be major powers who can — US, Europe, China, etc.

My point is that it’s never going to be the case that technologists get to unilaterally decide that for all of society.

My proposal is just to bring phones into line with existing warrants: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036408

But by doing so, technologists have the political cover to push back on spy agency excesses and abuses.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#72

Post by darkpuma »

FakeComments wrote: post #64
nothrabannosir wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a first order objection to a second order concern. In particular: > What’s not going to sell, and what the tech industry needs to get over is “lulz, it’ll impossible to intercept military or terrorist information because I need absolute privacy for my saucy emails” Seems to be an ironic mischaracterisation of the parent’s point, which was precisely that one coubtry’s terrorism is another’s gay rights…

> Seems to be an ironic mischaracterisation of the parent’s point, which was precisely that one coubtry’s terrorism is another’s gay rights activist or high ranking foreign official. My point was that issues like this should be mediated by courts and existing legal systems, not the unilateral decision of technologists. And that society is going to insist that be the case, hence the most effective way to protect those…

Which courts? Which legal systems? Legal systems and courts of nations who believe political speech is a crime and that alternative lifestyles are capital offenses?

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#73

Post by LeifCarrotson »

syn0byte wrote: post #66
FakeComments wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the conclusion of absolute security — it won’t happen, and only encourages subversion by people who both need and have a right to access the content. Instead of pontificating, the tech industry should innovate. There’s no reason that hashchains can’t be used to timelock the key, and the enclave export it in response to a signed request. Then we can at least force the compromises through the legal syst…

Wouldn't the police have a "right" to know if a person has any weapons? Detaining everyone and performing a full cavity search for any and all infractions is just the police exercising their "right" to such information. Will you be the first to bend over and spread for the cops "right" to peace of mind? "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that ha…

> "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved."

I wonder if that maxim is still generally approved. It seems like some authoritarians would prefer that 100 innocents would suffer than one guilty person should escape.

I suppose it depends how you define "innocent" and "suffer". Under modern law, everyone is guilty of something. And while we might not require suffering in prison, a little suffering of expensive legal fees, invasions of privacy of your digital data/at the border/in the airport, or searches and seizures of property by police in your car are commonplace.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#74

Post by FakeComments »

darkpuma wrote: post #72
FakeComments wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to be an ironic mischaracterisation of the parent’s point, which was precisely that one coubtry’s terrorism is another’s gay rights activist or high ranking foreign official. My point was that issues like this should be mediated by courts and existing legal systems, not the unilateral decision of technologists. And that society is going to insist that be the case, hence the most effective way to protect those…

Which courts? Which legal systems? Legal systems and courts of nations who believe political speech is a crime and that alternative lifestyles are capital offenses?

The ones who are capable of compelling the phone company to obey over political pressure from other sources.

This is a strict improvement over the current situation, where the answer is “anyone who has money”.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#75

Post by darkpuma »

FakeComments wrote: post #74
darkpuma wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which courts? Which legal systems? Legal systems and courts of nations who believe political speech is a crime and that alternative lifestyles are capital offenses?

The ones who are capable of compelling the phone company to obey over political pressure from other sources. This is a strict improvement over the current situation, where the answer is “anyone who has money”.

Providing deliberate backdoors to the legal system does not preclude the discovery of other exploits, and the sale of those exploits to whoever has money.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#76

Post by abrichr »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #54
zaroth wrote: post #13

Whether or not this hack was developed with the help of Apple (a “backdoor”) or by a third-party exploit, this is exactly what a “golden key” looks like after it gets in the wild. An espionage tool developed by a major world power proliferates to totalitarian regimes, aided and operated by ex-NSA agents on the payroll, to compromise human rights activists and the political opposition. If ever there was proof that our…

Nobody credible believes for a second that Apple was involved, for whatever it’s worth.

Could you please provide some sources?

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#77

Post by cryptonector »

pizza wrote: post #12

If the US government gives itself the right to install backdoors / exploit vulnerable software (as opposed to notifying companies about vulnerabilities) then I feel pretty uncomfortable about ex-government hackers just becoming freelance mercenaries using knowledge they may have gleaned from those ops once they move onto their next gig. I can't think of a great solution to this problem.

You can make it illegal for ex-NSA employees to use their knowledge of exploits learned while on the NSA payroll. It may well already be the case for all I know.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#78

Post by bkdbkd »

swebs wrote: post #9
mont wrote: post #4

I realize it's a really sexy headline, but I'd like for there to be more than 0 proof that this is a real thing. Especially if they claim a vulnerability that's exploitable by only sending a text.

This article doesn't cite sources, but the other one cites Lori Stroud, a former developer of the application. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spyi...

A much more technical description of the program. Thank you.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#79

Post by ryanlol »

merpnderp wrote: post #51
ryanlol wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do ex-NSA need special regulations? What even makes them special?

Their top security clearances, their access to the deepest darkest secrets of intelligence tools, networks, and systems. Would you trust an employee with your biggest secrets if you knew they were retiring soon and very likely to be hired at many times their current salary by some major competitor?

It’s already super illegal for them to leak any of that stuff.

Re: 'Karma': A hack used by the UAE to break into iPhones of foes

#80

Post by house_atr »

zaroth wrote: post #13

Whether or not this hack was developed with the help of Apple (a “backdoor”) or by a third-party exploit, this is exactly what a “golden key” looks like after it gets in the wild. An espionage tool developed by a major world power proliferates to totalitarian regimes, aided and operated by ex-NSA agents on the payroll, to compromise human rights activists and the political opposition. If ever there was proof that our…

"Totalitarian regime" I stop reading whenever I hear doublespeak. You need to find a new way to address countries that aren't western democracies. Especially since the rest of the world is catching up, you won't hold this monopoly on labels for much longer.
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