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Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

workingwa.org

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Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#531

Post by pessimizer »

manigandham wrote: post #516
MisterTea wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At a minimum I'm going to be tipping in cash. Do the right thing. Take a stand for human decency and make a compromise by closing your instacart account now . Absorb the inconvenience and do your own shopping. And make sure to tell instacart to (insert profanity of choice) if you can while closing your account. That behaviour is low down and dirty. Shady craigs list used car dealer level stuff. I just walked three…

Good for you, but arbitrary moral judgements against everyone else never goes well. Walking miles to gather food and water is the reality for billions of people. Using Instacart is a luxury in the first place, but having everyone close their account only hurts the very people you seem to be for. In case you missed it in the article, there is a workaround so that your tips are correctly considered, or you can always p…

> arbitrary moral judgements

This is redundant. You are making a general argument here against making decisions based on your own morality.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#532

Post by dragonwriter »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #461
dragonwriter wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US needs law changes that outlaw tipping. No, it just needs to not treat workers that might receive tips differently: they should have he same minimum wages as other workers and tips should not count as compensation by the employer satisfying minimum wage mandates. Private employers might then wish to prohibit employees accepting tips (since it no longer benefits the employer as it does now for the worker to be…

> No, it just needs to not treat workers that might receive tips differently: they should have he same minimum wages as other workers and tips should not count as compensation by the employer satisfying minimum wage mandates. Now they're getting minimum wage and I still feel the need to tip. That doesn't fix the problem unless we also make major changes to the minimum wage. > Private employers might then wish to proh…

> Now they're getting minimum wage and I still feel the need to tip.

I'm not sure that your dislike of your own sense of obligation is sufficient cause for a legal prohibition on tipping. I think you should be free to tip (though employers should likewise be free to prohibit employees from accepting tips, and should have fewer reasons not to do so than they currently do.)

OTOH, I would get behind (and meant to include this before) prohibiting employers from taking, offsetting, or redirecting tips, including directing employees in a sharing regime; requiring tips, if given and accepted (employers would be permitted to prohibir the latter as a condition of employment, so long as the policy was uniform) to be property of the recieving employee independent of the employer. Basically, they are now a dodge around sales taxes for many employers, but effectively still revenue that the employer controls, within some limits, which gives employers a big reason to protect tipping culture.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#533

Post by dingo_bat »

gbear605 wrote: post #187
aqme28 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More of a civil than criminal matter I think the question though is _why_ is that? If I steal $950 from someone then it's criminal, but if I refuse to pay them what I agreed then it's civil. It's an odd discrepancy IMO.

For one, we probably don't need the police to come and arrest Instacart's CEO in this case.

Why not? If you stole $950 from a random guy on the street wouldn't you get arrested?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#534

Post by rurp »

mruts wrote: post #380
rafiki6 wrote: post #110

More evidence as to why tipping culture needs to die. Tipping fundamentally takes away the responsibility of paying someone for their work from the employer to the customer. In what other business context do I pay an employee of a company I deal with directly outside of the service industry where tipping is common? Wages are a cost of doing business. Pay the worker enough. If you want to still provide them an incenti…

Well it should start with you right? Are you willing to never tip again in your entire life? If so, let us know how it goes (or maybe is going?) Or, alternatively, maybe you don't live in a country with a tipping culture. And if so, then tipping doesn't really affect you. People like to tip. I like to tip. Waiters and waitresses like to be tipped. My wife used to work as a waitress and would clear over $300 a night i…

I worked a tipped job for years and hated that aspect of it. It made my income more stressful and erratic than a normal wage. I can confirm what others have pointed out, that it also reinforces stereotypes.

Like any erratic and arbitrary system there will be some winners who make out well, but it's not a great way of compensating people for work.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#535

Post by blaisio »

Wow. I'm cancelling my instacart account immediately. They've made so many mistakes in the past, but I liked their app. But this crosses the line by a mile. When I give someone a tip, it's not because I chose to pay more for an order just for fun, it's because I want the worker to get extra. They don't get to charge me a service fee, and ask me to tip, and then not give the worker my service fee. That's just crazy.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#536

Post by FireBeyond »

pkaye wrote: post #498
FireBeyond wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, but WA State Labor and Industries is not quite so "generous" to the gig economy, including their test for contractors, which is a bit more ... "rigorous" ... than some startups would like: Does the independent contractor bring more than their personal labor? Do they hire crew of their own or are they bringing other employees? Or, are they bringing heavy or costly specialized equipment? Are they an establish…

All great questions but what has the state labor board not been enforcing it on Instacart up to now?

Because it wasn't obvious / evident / they haven't received a complaint from an affected individual in regards to this practice?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#537

Post by tareqak »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #519
tareqak wrote: post #476

Isn’t this similar to what DoorDash (a YC company) is doing? https://notipdoordash.com These sorts of stories confirm my feelings about tipping that I’ve had all along: tipping is just a way to subsidize employers by pitting employees against customers and guilt-tripping the latter. Follow-up update: Aren't all the gig economy start-ups (Uber/Uber Eats, Lyft, Caviar, Eat24/Yelp, Fiverr etc.) potentially doing the sam…

Uber/UberEats drivers get 100% of every tip, that is completely outside the equation for their pay.

Sorry, that's what I meant: an independent contractor getting 100% of their tips doesn't mean Uber/UberEats hasn't adjusted the amount they pay the contractor.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#538

Post by fencepost »

RoadieRoller wrote: post #511

Our team of 5 went to a good restaurant/steak place in LA last week, ate and drank for $300, enjoyed the ambience and ate great food, enjoyed the warmth of the service, spent great time together and tipped $75 Who should the tip go to? - To the owner who spent/spends a fortune running it in LA? - To the chef who catered to our needs without seeing us? - To the person who immediately and happily tended to us everytime…

It's been 30 years since I worked in a restaurant, but at that particular place the waitstaff received tips and split them according to some formula. I think busboys got 10%, not sure if or how much went to the bartender or anyone "back of house" in the kitchen.

In any case, the owner's revenue is based on the menu pricing; if the owner wants more then the prices get raised. For anyone else, the expectation is likely to be that tips go through the server and are divided from there if they're divided at all. Don't stress too much about tipping the other staff unless someone's gone far above and beyond.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#539

Post by FireBeyond »

rurp wrote: post #527
FireBeyond wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're under the IRS estimate? Absolutely. Above? Not so much. A lot of wait staff seem content to push mis-information: "If you tip poorly, the IRS makes us pay tax on it anyway, i.e. we're having to pay to serve you!" No, the IRS makes an estimate on how much tipped workers are paid. If you document and it's less, then you pay tax on that. But using the IRS as the big bad wolf to get more tips that you know dam…

I worked a tipped job where we signed an agreement with the IRS to automatically report a flat rate of tips, regardless of what we actually earned. So on a bad day it was certainly possible to earn less than minimum wage. That said, I don't know how common such agreements are.

Admittedly, that's a good point. I somewhat view that as electing to always take the standard deduction, regardless of whether you'd get more itemized.

Not quite the same, but perhaps it's a quid pro quo, of sorts. "Ups and downs in the economy, we won't come after you for earnings above the flat rate, but you will pay when lower". Which does negate my point, but such an agreement is consensual.

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