Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip • Hacker News Board

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#521

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #458

MisterTea wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At a minimum I'm going to be tipping in cash. Do the right thing. Take a stand for human decency and make a compromise by closing your instacart account now . Absorb the inconvenience and do your own shopping. And make sure to tell instacart to (insert profanity of choice) if you can while closing your account. That behaviour is low down and dirty. Shady craigs list used car dealer level stuff. I just walked three…

You didn't explain why that's "the right thing". Making sure the worker is paid well is the most important part. It's also possible that instacart will lose money on the sales where they can't scam tips; that means you can use the service and pay the worker well and punish instacart and increase the incentive for them to change their policy.

This is basically the argument for removing the minimum wage entirely. Some money is better than no money, right? I'd prefer not to live in that dystopia.

Or we can just make it very clear that companies that engage in outright wage theft should be put out of business, so no other business ever tries it in the future.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#522

Post by jlarocco » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 2:55 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #504

mannykannot wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while it is not as important an issue, I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens (now that I am aware that this does happen, I assume that it has probably been done with some tips I have made.) To be clear: this is not an alternative way of looking at the issue, it is an additional indictment stemming from the practice.

> I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens It is standard (though not universal) practice for restaurant staff to pool and divide tips, which would appear to be the same thing from a defrauding-the-tipper perspective. I'm more upset about this line from Instacart: > We include tips in the calculation [of pay for deliveries] so that you can get a more accurate picture of what your earnings wil…

Tip pooling/sharing is different in a few significant ways, though.

First, restaurant staff always know ahead of time if they have to share tips.

And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips.

And, finally, in most restaurants the tip pool is also split up with bussers, bartenders, and hosts who don't always make tips of their own, but still contribute to the overall experience.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#523

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #522

thaumasiotes wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens It is standard (though not universal) practice for restaurant staff to pool and divide tips, which would appear to be the same thing from a defrauding-the-tipper perspective. I'm more upset about this line from Instacart: > We include tips in the calculation [of pay for deliveries] so that you can get a more accurate picture of what your earnings wil…

Tip pooling/sharing is different in a few significant ways, though. First, restaurant staff always know ahead of time if they have to share tips. And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips. And, finally, in most restaurants the tip pool is also split up with bussers, bartenders, and hosts who don't always make tips of their own, but sti…

I agree that the first two points are significant, but I don't think they're particularly relevant to the viewpoint "as a tipper, I feel I'm being defrauded when this happens".

The third point is also correct, but in that case I think it supports the idea that the tipper is being defrauded when it happens.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#524

Post by batiudrami » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:01 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #504

mannykannot wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while it is not as important an issue, I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens (now that I am aware that this does happen, I assume that it has probably been done with some tips I have made.) To be clear: this is not an alternative way of looking at the issue, it is an additional indictment stemming from the practice.

> I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens It is standard (though not universal) practice for restaurant staff to pool and divide tips, which would appear to be the same thing from a defrauding-the-tipper perspective. I'm more upset about this line from Instacart: > We include tips in the calculation [of pay for deliveries] so that you can get a more accurate picture of what your earnings wil…

>It is standard (though not universal) practice for restaurant staff to pool and divide tips, which would appear to be the same thing from a defrauding-the-tipper perspective.

In that case at least the staff get your tip. In this case Instacart is taking it for themselves.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#525

Post by tareqak » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:05 AM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #370

function_seven wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fair Labor Standards Act disallows this type of agreement for ordinarily-tipped jobs. I don't know how the contractor status of Instacart drivers affects this. They're not technically employees. But the verbiage of "Tip" in the UI is a strong signal to the customer that the money is directly credited to the driver. It should bear no relation to their fee from Instacart. This is wage theft. A horrible agreement do…

The google term you want is "tip credit" -- it is common and legal federally and in most states to deduct tips from your hourly wage. Washington state is one of the few where tip credits are not legal. This is a very common setup in other pay structures as well, such as commissioned sales where you are paid a "draw" (such as minimum wage) and you don't paid get any commission until your commissions exceed minimum wag…

How is this allowed by law? If you have to pay back your minimum wage before you get your commission then it’s not really a minimum wage.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#526

Post by maxerickson » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:05 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #523

jlarocco wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tip pooling/sharing is different in a few significant ways, though. First, restaurant staff always know ahead of time if they have to share tips. And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips. And, finally, in most restaurants the tip pool is also split up with bussers, bartenders, and hosts who don't always make tips of their own, but sti…

I agree that the first two points are significant, but I don't think they're particularly relevant to the viewpoint "as a tipper, I feel I'm being defrauded when this happens". The third point is also correct, but in that case I think it supports the idea that the tipper is being defrauded when it happens.

I feel like you maybe need to write a book about why you think a server sharing their tips around is equivalent to a corporation reducing wages based on tips.

I don't see how any shorter treatment would be a sufficient explanation.

I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud!

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#527

Post by rurp » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:11 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #353

airstrike wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen anyone accurately report tips earned in cash?

If they're under the IRS estimate? Absolutely. Above? Not so much. A lot of wait staff seem content to push mis-information: "If you tip poorly, the IRS makes us pay tax on it anyway, i.e. we're having to pay to serve you!" No, the IRS makes an estimate on how much tipped workers are paid. If you document and it's less, then you pay tax on that. But using the IRS as the big bad wolf to get more tips that you know dam…

I worked a tipped job where we signed an agreement with the IRS to automatically report a flat rate of tips, regardless of what we actually earned. So on a bad day it was certainly possible to earn less than minimum wage. That said, I don't know how common such agreements are.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#528

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:13 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #526

thaumasiotes wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the first two points are significant, but I don't think they're particularly relevant to the viewpoint "as a tipper, I feel I'm being defrauded when this happens". The third point is also correct, but in that case I think it supports the idea that the tipper is being defrauded when it happens.

I feel like you maybe need to write a book about why you think a server sharing their tips around is equivalent to a corporation reducing wages based on tips. I don't see how any shorter treatment would be a sufficient explanation. I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud!

> I mean, imagine the scenario where the server just buys a line cook a drink to say thank you. Fraud!

That would be a case of the server getting the money and deciding to buy something for the cook.

Whereas in an actual tip-sharing restaurant, the server gets his share of the tip pool after the cook's share has already been taken out. He doesn't get a choice in the matter.

This is generally not what the people giving the tips have in mind.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#529

Post by Domenic_S » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:14 AM UTC

tareqak wrote: post #525

Domenic_S wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The google term you want is "tip credit" -- it is common and legal federally and in most states to deduct tips from your hourly wage. Washington state is one of the few where tip credits are not legal. This is a very common setup in other pay structures as well, such as commissioned sales where you are paid a "draw" (such as minimum wage) and you don't paid get any commission until your commissions exceed minimum wag…

How is this allowed by law? If you have to pay back your minimum wage before you get your commission then it’s not really a minimum wage.

There are lots of kinds of draw, but this kind is essentially a loan against your future commissions (or in our context, against your tips).

Here's some more information about how it works legally: https://corporate.findlaw.com/human-resources/legal-consider...

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#530

Post by loeg » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 3:15 AM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #522

thaumasiotes wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens It is standard (though not universal) practice for restaurant staff to pool and divide tips, which would appear to be the same thing from a defrauding-the-tipper perspective. I'm more upset about this line from Instacart: > We include tips in the calculation [of pay for deliveries] so that you can get a more accurate picture of what your earnings wil…

Tip pooling/sharing is different in a few significant ways, though. First, restaurant staff always know ahead of time if they have to share tips. And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips. And, finally, in most restaurants the tip pool is also split up with bussers, bartenders, and hosts who don't always make tips of their own, but sti…

> And their hourly compensation, as ridiculously low as it may be, is never adjusted to compensate for higher than normal tips.

This varies by state. Google "server wage" and your blood will boil. It's illegal in WA, though — servers make standard minimum wage and employers can't take servers' tips.